How Can they do that??

Queue

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 21, 2003
Messages
25
Location
Ohio
I have a pretty large civilization going. I am not researching any tech at the moment because it takes too long. I have found that I can buy a tech from a civ in about 7 or 8 turns of collecting 150+ gold. If I try to research the same tech it would take me 14 or more turns.

What I can't figure out is this. Almost all civs had Invention and Education. 7 turns goes buy and I purchased Invention. Then another 7 turns go buy and I purchased Education. The very next turn I check the other civs and now most of them have 4 new Techs above me. I would think that is a rather large jump when most of keep very little cash on hand.

I have been unable to get my research up enough to compete with that. Any Suggestions??

Thanks Q
 
Queue said:
I have a pretty large civilization going. I am not researching any tech at the moment because it takes too long...I have been unable to get my research up enough to compete with that. Any Suggestions??

Can you give some more info as to what government you have, how many cities, what difficulty level, what nation you are etc...?

Having the right government will have an effect (Democracy, followed by Republic, are best science options.) Convert to Republic as soon as you can, unless you're in a major war and need to have a Monarchy to support a lot of military units. If your Civ is a 'Religious' one you can switch governments very easily in 1 turn.

Ideally you should be able to research a new tech every 4-5 turns, by the Industrial Era.

Try to aim to build a 'Science City' - i.e. one that has a Library, a University, Copernicus's Observatory Wonder, Newton's College Wonder, and eventually the SETI Wonder. All these improvements will multiply together to give a very large number of science 'beakers' per turn - c.140-180 depending on city size.

Pre-build vital Wonders by having a very productive city (e.g. one with iron resources, lots of mines!) building the Palace improvement (obviously not your capital city though!), which you can then switch to the Wonder you need at the right moment (the so-called 'Palace Pre-build' trick).

You should always aim for the Great Library Wonder in Ancient Era so you can stay ahead of (or at least alongside) the other Civs for a while, then aim for the Scientific Method advance in Industrial era to gain 2 tech advances..

As ever, keep your citizens happy, so you can convert excess ones to Scientists, and also optimize each cities science output - especially coastal cities, by having to tie less citizens up as entertainers.
 
frunobulax said:
Try to aim to build a 'Science City' - i.e. one that has a Library, a University, Copernicus's Observatory Wonder, Newton's College Wonder, and eventually the SETI Wonder. All these improvements will multiply together to give a very large number of science 'beakers' per turn - c.140-180 depending on city size.
Sorry, I think this is a fallacy. All the science multipliers from buildings and Wonders are applied to the base science income. They don't apply cumulatively. The only benefit to having a "science city" is if you are going for a 20K culture victory, and/or if you only have one city that has a high gpt.

In my experiece, the keys to any successful civ strategy, including one requiring high speed science, are mostly in the way you play the Ancient Age and the early Middle Ages. Here are some o fthe things I've picked up from the experts around here:

- Get your gross commerce - gpt - as high as possible by building roads everywhere your citizens are working, growing lots of people, making sure they work river-side tiles wherever possible, exploiting commerce bonus resources. This starts right at 4000 BC. Make workers to develop tiles to deliver food and gold.

- During the Ancient Age, don't feel bad about trading for techs, or running 10% research. Particularly at higher levels it's cheaper to buy than to research. Focus on getting your gpt income up and then choose research projects that you think will provide you with a trading edge in 40 turns.

- Use all the trading tricks. Contact trading and Map trading at the turns when Writing and Mapmaking respectively become available, can be huge income earners, and/or get you to tech parity. Check out Moonsinger's Trade Training thread where a single trading turn was played out out by some of the top players. It transformed my attitude to tech trading. Look out for "2-fers" - situations where one civ has two techs or more you want and another doesn't have one of them. If you can buy the unique one you may be able to get the other one cheap or free in exchange for it. You have to ne checking pretty the diplo screens very regularly to spot these opportunities. Don't imagine the AI civs are not doing this among themselves.

- Don't let city governors run your economy until you have an unassailable lead. They really don't know how to do it, and you don't want your civ to be run as badly as the AI civs run. They hire entertainers at the drop of a hat, don't know about taxmen, ignore high gpt tiles ....

- Get to Literature as fast as possible and then build libraries in all your core cities. They multiply base science in the city by 1.5.

- As soon as you can get Currency build Market Places in your core cities. These will increase your net tax income by 50%, allowing you to plough more into science. Also, if you have a few luxuries, they allow you to increase the productive population in your core cities without unhappiness problems.

- Build a second core as soon as possible, and read about corruption and techniques like RCP (Ring City Placement) to reduce it. Your first core is usually round your Palace. The Forbidden Palace provides another center round which you can build a second core of low-corruption cities. Various tricks are available to get a second core up and running fast. My favourite is to build the Forbidden Palace in a ciy local to the Palace, where it can be built in 20-30 turns during the Ancient Age, and then use the first Great Leader I get (I'm basically a war monger :D ) to rush a new Palace in a juicy captured AI capital city. That way the AI has kindly built your econd core for you ;)

- Did I say don't use city governors?

- Republic is the way to go. Democracy is actually not that great in my experience. If you haven't reached a fast science rate by the time Democracy is available you are already in trouble. Republic gives an extra gpt on every gold-producing tile. Even for quite large military civs it still makes sense relative to Monarchy, as the Republic military upkeep cost is offset by the extra gpt you are earning, especially if you have built markets and libraries. Monarchy is effective if you want to engage in long slow wars, when it will give you zero war weariness. But who wants long, slow wars?

- Figure out what will trigger your civ's Golden Age, and make it happen when it is most productive - typically while you are at peace, in Republic, during the Middle Ages. Your Golden Age creates an extra gpt and an extra shield per turn from every tile that produces them already. During this 20 turn period you can build up your treasury, or use the extra gpt to fund a fast science rate. At 4 turns per tech you can research 5 techs in your 20 turn Golden Age. The extra shields mean you can build extra libraries or universities according to the time when it happens. It's a slingshot effect that can put you in the lead and in a position to leave the AI standing.

- Turn down the research slider during the last couple of turns of the project if you are doing high speed research. You often find you can finish it in the same time at a lower slider level and save the cash. If you run flat out to the last turn you may be throwing money away unnecessarily.

- Oh! And don't turn on the city governors until the late game.
 
AlanH said:
Monarchy is effective if you want to engage in long slow wars, when it will give you zero war weariness. But who wants long, slow wars?
I agree with everything you said AlanH, but this. I always go for Monarchy. While the thought of getting the added benefits of Republic intrigue me, I am almost always at war with one civ or another once I change governments. Not necessarily long slow wars either. Just wars, false and otherwise. I've never been able to get over all the war weariness in anything other than Monarchy and usually remain there. I will admit though that after some of your recent posts touting Republic, I've been itching to try it as a warmonger, but have yet to find the time.
 
I used to swear by Monarchy for exactly the same reason, but I did some research into war weariness after I realised the huge gpt advantage.

False wars don't cause war weariness because none of the factors that generate weariness apply. War weariness is due to:

1. AI civs capturing your cities. Something I avoid anyway.

2. Foreign troops occupying your territory. Ditto.

3. Your troops spending time between turns on enemy territory. Minimise this by using units like horses/knights/cavalry/tanks to attack from outside enemy borders wherever possible.

4. Your troops dying in battle. You can reduce this by getting a technology lead and using superior forces - knights vs spears, cavalry v pikes, and using fast units means you have a 50% higher survival rate because they can retreat against slow defenders.

5. War duration with a specific civ. Each war generates its own war weariness, and they add up. This means you can be at war continuously in Republic, as long as each war lasts only five to ten turns. When you make peace or kill the enemy the war weariness due to that war ceases.

When war weariness does strike, just recognise it (click an unhappy citizen ad they'll tell you to give peace a chance), increase the happiness slider or grab some more luxuries to keep the population happy, and look for a way to end the war that's contributing most. That will be the one where you've been at active war longest with battles on your soil or your enemy's.

Have a look at the current Jumpmasters_1B Succession Game. We've played the Mongols - not the most peaceful civ in the world - and opted for a fast domination victory in Republic. Wars are not lasting very long :D
 
Thanks for pointing out the Jumpmasters_1B game. I'd stopped subscribing to that forum since there were usually no Mac friendly games there. Nice to see one going on, and an interesting one to boot. Looks like it should keep me occupied for a while. ;)
 
AlanH said:
... the only benefit to having a "science city" is if you are going for a 20K culture victory...

Absolutely my choice :) Don't deny an old micromanager his pleasures :crazyeye:
 
I'm not sure if this is already clear, but I think the problem is that the Civs were already 6 advances ahead of you, but you are only allowed to see the ones you can take based on prerequisites. When you get the prerequisites for what they have, then the other techs those civs have is revealed to you.
 
pablogott said:
I'm not sure if this is already clear, but I think the problem is that the Civs were already 6 advances ahead of you, but you are only allowed to see the ones you can take based on prerequisites. When you get the prerequisites for what they have, then the other techs those civs have is revealed to you.

You could be right there, and probably are...That then tells you how slow my way of getting tech improvments really is.

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frunobulax said:
Can you give some more info as to what government you have, how many cities, what difficulty level, what nation you are etc...?

Yes I can surely give you more info
I have 52 cities
Diffficulty is Regent
Goverment is Republic --No wars have been fought to date
Nation is Iroquios
Year is 1270
Large Map
9 Civs

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I love the idea of using the Forbidden Palace as a jump start to some wonders, I think I will try that. I know I lost the library and a couple of others I wanted. These are all wonderfull ideas, almost makes me want to start the game over to see if I can remember to do some of them.
 
Queue said:
I love the idea of using the Forbidden Palace as a jump start to some wonders, I think I will try that....

No, don't use Forbidden Palace, use the regular Palace as the jump start, since Civ3 allows you to relocate the palace improvement. Also, it has a higher 'shield' cost, so you can prebuild expensive Wonders, then switch over to them...
 
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