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How diverse is civ6?

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Henri Christophe

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I made this map to see how diverse is Civ6:
Civ6.jpg

Is it possible an expansion without more civs from Europe/Middle eastern and do more civs in blanks of this map?
Civ6-city-state.jpg
 
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I don't think so. Europe is one of the regions where they make alot of money with the game. More civs from this region are likely to attract more people there. Portugal, Austria or Venice are still left for example and (especially Portugal) requested by the community.
Oh the other hand there are just a few blank spaces in your map which are mostly coverd in a way already. In the North you have nearly no civs but then again there are just 3 countries: Russia, Canada and the USA (Alaska) which are all already in the game.
The other blank space is around Indonesia (edit: which is already in the game but not on your map as @Vandlys correctly mentioned edit: the map is fixed now). I agree that there could be more civs from that area.
If we get another expansion I guess there will be one or maximum two European civs which leaves six to seven civs from other areas anyway.
 
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You would have to change history. Civilisations just didn't develop in the barely inhabtied wilds of Siberia. I wonder why not!
Tinglit and Inuits would help to fill this blank, 4 example.
Americas, by the way, can have thousant of civilization under explorated.
 
The upside-down map is killing my brain cells, Henri. Please, turn it right-side-up before I go braindead!
 
I think there's a limit to how far we can add historically not-that-relevant civs for the sake of diversity (whether ethnic or geographic), but I would like to see at least a bit more of it (particularly geographic). In particular, to fill out the map, I'd like to see a lot of northern tribes like Tatars (central nothern Russia), Yupiks (far east Russia), Inuit (Greenland + Northern Canada), etc. I'd also like a western USA area tribe like the Pueblo (yeah I know), an amazon jungle tribe, a western Chinese group (I would Uyghurs but I"m sure firaxis wants to be able to sell the game in China) and a western australian aboriginal tribe.

I know we'll never have a 100% geographically equal distribution of selectable civs, nor should we, but I think we should get a bit closer. It's quite annoying when I play a map like TSL europe as a city like France or Greece and have to fight for every inch, meanwhile Russia or Hungary or Poland can just go east and settle 20 cities (which are viable ingame even if it isn't the best land IRL) with no pressure to fight.
 
I like the european civ selection, but agreed that I'd love to see more of the rest of the map filled in. Adding in civs like the Cree and Mapuche this time I think helped fill some historically missed spots in the Americas, but I'd love to see probably one more Western Native American civ and also another eastern one, some day would love to see a Carribean one too, and yeah, certainly more SEA, Indonesia, and Africa to fill things out as well.

If I could pick the civs for a NFP2 pack, I think I would have Portugal as my only European civ, and then you could basically pick any 7 civs from the rest of the world and that would help balance things a little more.
 
I just realized from your map that 44% of civs in the Americas are colonial nations. That's a lot.
I like the european civ selection, but agreed that I'd love to see more of the rest of the map filled in. Adding in civs like the Cree and Mapuche this time I think helped fill some historically missed spots in the Americas, but I'd love to see probably one more Western Native American civ and also another eastern one, some day would love to see a Carribean one too, and yeah, certainly more SEA, Indonesia, and Africa to fill things out as well.

If I could pick the civs for a NFP2 pack, I think I would have Portugal as my only European civ, and then you could basically pick any 7 civs from the rest of the world and that would help balance things a little more.
I agree with all of this other than the Indonesia part because we already have Gitarja with Indonesia who was accidentally left out of the map here.

It seems like we have too few civs in the Americas / Africa / Central Asia given the cultural diversity. We're still eurocentric. Geographically, looking at this map, I can see three major regions of Africa that are empty, namely West Africa (take a civ like Ashanti or Ghana), the Maghreb (civs like Morocco or Berbers), and East Africa (civs like Swahili or Madagascar, or even add Oman for something else in the Arabian peninsula while also representing some of history in East Africa). In the Americas, much of the central/western parts of North America are empty - we could add civs like Tlingit or Haida for the Pacific Northwest and one or multiple of the many viable choices for other Nations like Navajo, Pueblo, Apache, Sioux, Cherokee, etc.etc. We could also probably get away with another civ in South America like Guarani or Tupi or Muisca and help skew the continent away from colonial, or include some Caribbean choices like Taino or Haiti - and though I would want the emphasis to be on new Native civs rather than ones stemming from colonialism, I'd make an exception for Haiti, which was anti-colonial in its nature. Then add one or multiple civs from Asia, including something from Central Asia. Not going to touch on that region though because I don't know enough about the choices.

So just for fun, let's say we have a second DLC pass that adds another 8 civs. Portugal seems to be one of the most requested, so let's give them a slot as the sole civ of Europe in the pass. For the Americas, let's say we get a Native American PNW civ, another from west/southwest/central NA, and possibly either a Caribbean pre- or post-colonial civ or a South American Native civ. That covers us for 4 of the 8 civs already. From Africa, let's say we get a West African civ, a Maghrebi civ, and possibly an East African civ. That's 7, leaving only one choice from Asia.

In the NFP, we're mostly sure that we're getting Vietnam, and we'll have one more civ choice that is totally unknown as of yet. I predict that the last civ of NFP will be something from one of the regions I mentioned above or something like Iroquois. If it's something from one of the regions I mentioned, we can count that one in our account of geographical representation after NFP, essentially freeing up 2 choices instead of 1. Meaning we could have an additional civ from Asia, for example. So, in Civ 6, including NFP and one hypothetical post-NFP pass, I predict we could still see 9 civ choices: 1 Europe, 3 Americas, 3 Africa, 2 Asia. That's if a hypothetical second DLC pass has 1 Europe, 3 Americas, 3 Africa, and 1 Asia, which sounds like rather few from Asia when you look at the pass in a vacuum. I dunno. For context, if we include Vietnam, NFP has 2 Europe, 2 Americas, 1 Africa, 2 Asia, and 1 still unaccounted for.

TL;DR I think a second round of DLC adding 8 civs after NFP has the potential to get us the geographical representation we appear to lack from a map of the civs. Whether it's enough cultural representation is another story.
 
This seems like an appropriate place to bring up map projections! The blank/filled regions would look very different if using different projections. Canada, Russia, Alaska, and Greenland wouldn’t seem so vast while Africa and the Americas would appear remarkably empty if one were to use a surface area-conserving projection.

It would also be interesting to use a terrain overlay to see where extreme mountains and deserts are, as they could also explain many of the gaps. Of course, Mali and Inca show that civilizations can form in these places too!
 
Much as my personal preference would be the Haida (you don't get to be called vikings of the Pacific Northwest without being kinda awesome, and Haida art is amazing), my money is probably on Si'ahl of the Salish/Suquamish/Duwamish (or, as he's better known in English, Chief Seattle) being the odds-on favorite leader to actually represent the PNW tribes in the game. They won't want a second geographically Canadian tribe after the Cree, and it seems likely a lower 48 States tribe gets in than an Alaska one - much more visible. Plus a lot more well known than other PNW Native leaders.
 
This seems like an appropriate place to bring up map projections! The blank/filled regions would look very different if using different projections. Canada, Russia, Alaska, and Greenland wouldn’t seem so vast while Africa and the Americas would appear remarkably empty if one were to use a surface area-conserving projection.

It would also be interesting to use a terrain overlay to see where extreme mountains and deserts are, as they could also explain many of the gaps. Of course, Mali and Inca show that civilizations can form in these places too!

Also obviously if you place the civs around the region they occupied, and not as a single point, that would change things. Russia's pin is very much in Europe, whereas the Russian civ in game obviously still covers large segments in Asia. Of course, just because the Mongolian empire stretched far out certainly doesn't mean you shouldn't also include other Central Asian civs.

And obviously, "diverse" doesn't just mean diverse geographically. As mentioned, the Americas are quite "post-colonial", and the middle east and central asia is obviously very heavily ancient era. Just because we have Gitarja representing the Majapahit empire, there probably space for a more modern representative in that region too, although I don't know enough to know who to suggest. I'm also certainly very curious to see the direction that Vietnam takes - that's a civ with both ancient and modern history, and which direction they take that civ in could also change perception about balance in that region.
 
i do think that diversity is important for a game like civ and i do get annoyed of the eurocentrism; i personally don't care if they add even more european civs into the game as long as they do as well for other continents, hell i don't care if they 5 more european civs if the we get at least more than 3 on other places.
Gameplay wise when it comes to terrain there can be a lot of civs outside europe that could play along snow, tundra and desert; i think the better options for tundra/snow civs are Inuit (NorthAmerica), Tehuelche (South America), Nenets and Tartars (Both for Siberia), Sami (Scandinavia) and maybe Manchu/Jurchen (Kinda like the "snowy horde" of the game")
 
I would definitely like to see more representation from the americas and africa though not sure using geographical blank spots is a good way to measure diversity.

I wonder if maybe there's an argument for some de-blobbing (especially) in Asia as well. Most of the de-blobbing from earlier editions of civ has happened in Europe (celts -> gaul/scotland, Greece -> macedon/greece, vikings -> Sweden/Norway/Denmark, I guess the horrific native american blobbing is the main exception). Even with my distinct lack of knowledge, I can think of a lot of historic polities in asia that would be really interesting to see but are currently subsumed into modern asian nations in civ....
 
Maybe add Gitarja to have at least one blank spot filled? : P
I fixed it XD


You would have to change history. Civilisations just didn't develop in the barely inhabtied wilds of Siberia. I wonder why not!
The human beign devolped society in every part of earth, even in Siberia we have the Nenets and Tartars as said Birch617. But our history books is very eurocentric, that reflex in our behavior, our maps, our choice from next civ. And since we asking for more european civs it will give less space to other areas of the world.

Pacific Ocean are full with human life and just have the Maori.
America have enought civilizations to be full as Europe but still just full of blanks. I never understand how a game as Civilization never made Toltecs or Olmecs before, where is US-Native Americans?
Africa is also very forgot, West Africa just have Mali. Central Africa just have Congo. Both places have enought societies to be full as Europe. Let's avoid ask for more europeans civs to Civilization 6, please.
 
I appreciate your point.

However, when they add new Civs, I want to be excited by it, and that generally means name recognition. I was excited by Babylon, Byzantines and the Gauls because I'd known a bit about them and felt some kind of connection. Georgians? Mapuche? Khmer? I'd head their names before, and...that's about it. They're fillers, and that's about it.

Obviously, the roster of what is exciting and what is filler is different for each person, but there'll be some that would be universally desired and some that are more niche. I'd love to have Venetians, while I'd never even heard of the Yupiks. Guess which one I'd spend money on, and which I wouldn't? That's why it's Euro centric - two of the three main areas for selling games have a strong recognition for European civilisations.

I don't mind more obscure Civs, but I want recognisable ones too.
 
People are gonna ask for what they want, and products are gonna be tailored to fit the "wants" of the people with the most financial power. I am supporting more visibility of unknown "civilizations", but wanting them to be on the same level of representation of major powers in the world's history is just like shoving an agenda down people's throats, and I'm pretty sure there is already enough of that.
It is true that human history begins everywhere, but you also need to ask the question why a few empires/civilizations have a lot longer lasting impacts while others are practically unheard of. Like it or not, history is written by the victor, the man who conquers reserves the right to assimilate other groups of people and have substantial cultural influence over others. You don't need to be European to wear a suit, or enjoy English-speaking or western culture, but please tell me one way how the Tlingit has influenced your life if you are not from that region.
And no I am neither from Europe or North America, I am from one of those underrepresented regions, and please don't equate unheard-of tribes with major world powers and ask for similar treatments, they were never the same and thus will never be treated the same.
 
I appreciate your point.

However, when they add new Civs, I want to be excited by it, and that generally means name recognition. I was excited by Babylon, Byzantines and the Gauls because I'd known a bit about them and felt some kind of connection. Georgians? Mapuche? Khmer? I'd head their names before, and...that's about it. They're fillers, and that's about it.

Obviously, the roster of what is exciting and what is filler is different for each person, but there'll be some that would be universally desired and some that are more niche. I'd love to have Venetians, while I'd never even heard of the Yupiks. Guess which one I'd spend money on, and which I wouldn't? That's why it's Euro centric - two of the three main areas for selling games have a strong recognition for European civilisations.

I don't mind more obscure Civs, but I want recognisable ones too.


I was very excited with Mapuche and Byzantium for me was a big desapointment (c'mon, Byzantium is just middle age East Rome...)
I'm cool with Babylon because I like to "Burn the babylon" with Ethiopians Rastafari soldiers (the soldiers are mine and for me they are all Rastafari hehe)
I also don't care to Georgians and Khmer, since I'm from Brazil, I really want to play with Native Americans and Africans, so, Tlingit would fit perfectly in my games.

People are gonna ask for what they want, and products are gonna be tailored to fit the "wants" of the people with the most financial power. I am supporting more visibility of unknown "civilizations", but wanting them to be on the same level of representation of major powers in the world's history is just like shoving an agenda down people's throats, and I'm pretty sure there is already enough of that.
It is true that human history begins everywhere, but you also need to ask the question why a few empires/civilizations have a lot longer lasting impacts while others are practically unheard of. Like it or not, history is written by the victor, the man who conquers reserves the right to assimilate other groups of people and have substantial cultural influence over others. You don't need to be European to wear a suit, or enjoy English-speaking or western culture, but please tell me one way how the Tlingit has influenced your life if you are not from that region.
And no I am neither from Europe or North America, I am from one of those underrepresented regions, and please don't equate unheard-of tribes with major world powers and ask for similar treatments, they were never the same and thus will never be treated the same.
I guess the point is try to find from theses blanks of world map amazing civs. Tlingit I discover here in this forum and just like they, but I should like all Native Americans.
And why need to be major civilizations in this game? I like to play with small too. The Zulu are very small nation but everybody like they, this game almost create Shaka Zulu, here in Brazil, if someone know who was Shaka, also know about that game.
 
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