How do Catapults work?

[Virtual Alex]

I am confused on how to use catapults. Are you actually supposed to attack with them? because they have a very sad strength, usually going against axemen/swordsmen and they always get owned. I understand bombarding, and I use that. But after the defenses are 0, are you actually supposed to send the catapults in? They are always like 9% underdogs. How are you supposed to even make use of the collateral damage upgrades if they always just get crushed? Or are they more for field use, and not city sieges?

 

[DaveMcW]

Attack with them and see...

They are much better than you think.

 

[Virtual Alex]

I guess I will try it. (I am away from the game right now so I can't try this second) But I have some cats next to a city with like 4 axemen on a hill. The cats chance at victory is something like 8%. What am I going to see if I attack with them? Aren't they just going to lose and cause very little damage? Do you just throw 10 catapults into a city and let callateral damage bring everyone down? I guess I can see that working, but it doesn't seem like that's how cats are supposed to work. I'll try the attack when I get home, but I am curious about what I am missing.

 

[trafficlight]

They are going to die. You have to suicide them until you get good enough odds that your entire stack won't die. Catapults are expendable.

 

[Virtual Alex]

Seems rather "un-thematic" but I guess I'll have to try it out.

 

[zenspiderz]

Cats in large numbers are quite devastating. the first to go in die typically but damage a number of defenders in the process. With each successive wave more defenders are damaged more and the cats start surviving more often. Then non-cat attackers can go in and one by one destroy the weakened defenders.

Best use - in large numbers against a large stack.

Effectiveness mitigated by drill promos amongst the defenders.

Best countered by massed withdrawing/flanking units like horse-archers and knights attacking the cat stack first.

 

[Genv [FP]]

The OP probably does not understand how collateral damage works

 

[Virtual Alex]

Well you COULD explain it.

But assuming from the name of the skill. I means the damage the catapult does splashes into other units in the stack. I just never though an 8% chance of victory would even do enough damage to matter. I feel like it would cost me like 10 catapults to handle a town with 4 defenders.

 

[Genv [FP]]

Collateral damage means that every time this unit attacks, it hurts other units in the stack, up to a max number.


It depends on what unit you're using, I believe, But Cats take anywhere from .5 - 1 strength off units that suffer damage, up to a maximum of 75% damage.

 

[Gwynnja]

The disposapaults die so your cr3 axes, swords, and maces can live to become cr3 riflemen, infantry and mechanized infantry.

 

[Hellman109]

Basically:
You bombard with cats to get their defensive bonus down.

Then you attack with cats, why? because one attack with a cat will damage upto... 5? units. Generally you lose the first one or two cats, then the rest will retreat and survive, often leaving the enemy units at about 20% health, which is a walk over for your regular troops.

They are absolutely necessary unless you severely out tech your enemy AND dont mind losing ALLOT of units.

They are mandatory IMO until you get fighter/bombers, and then they are still needed if your enemy has air defenses.

 

[DanF5771]

One BarrageII Catapult can take a maximum of 6*15 hitpoints = 90 hitpoints away from a stack of defenders of equal strength (5) by inflicting collateral damage on 6 units, plus hurt the defending unit in direct combat.
The reduced health of the defenders will lead to much better combat odds for your following attackers (it's an above-quadratic/almost-cubic effect). Furthermore, the odds of a siege unit to survive (retreat) are generally higher than the odds of a regular unit of equal strength to survive (win) a combat, since it needs to win fewer combat rounds.

The amounts of collateral damage can easily be calculated for units of variable strengths with the spreadsheet that I have attached to this post.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

But assuming from the name of the skill. I means the damage the catapult does splashes into other units in the stack. I just never though an 8% chance of victory would even do enough damage to matter. I feel like it would cost me like 10 catapults to handle a town with 4 defenders.

Collateral damage is inflicted before the actual combat begins; the amount of damage is independent of your chances of victory. (This is actually a fairly common misunderstanding).

You still expect to lose the catapults, but everybody else (especially units that a vulnerable to a particular defender) is much more likely to survive.

 

[King Jason]

I don't know why you'd say they have "sad" strength when they're on par with the two units you mentioned in your OP as well. They have 5 strength. Axemen have 5, Swordmen have 6.

Anyway, the Idea behind cats is pretty simple and can be explained without calculations;

In general, you expect to lose some units whenever assaulting an enemy stack, especially in cities. SO - it can either be cats, where their assault has lingering effects on the rest of the battle. Or it can be random unit #5, who will just die and wound the one unit he attacked, leaving unit #6 to fight a full strengthed unit too.

Sacrificing siege > Sacrificing anything else.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Do try to get them to CR II out of the gate if you can. It's not worth delaying an attack to do so but if you get a GG or theo/vassalage the 2nd CR promotion tends to let them live a LOT more frequently - even against the dreaded longbows.

Cats and siege in general are incredibly effective.

 

[BCampbell]

If my units are getting two promotions out of the box (barracks and civics -- I'm still playing vanilla), I like to give them first strikes or withdrawal chances. A single upgrade on either of these is pretty ineffective, but having a first strike and a first strike chance is surprisingly strong, and a 30% withdrawal chance is excellent and paves the way for other promotions.

If only one promotion is available, I usually go for the extra collateral damage, because that's what they're really for. You should be building enough of them that extra bombard damage doesn't matter.

Also, never send catapults into the field alone. Always have an escort. You generally want to keep all your catapults with your stack(s).

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

If only one promotion is available, I usually go for the extra collateral damage, because that's what they're really for.

Unless the changes to the collateral damage calculation introduced in the latest BTS patch were also ported to a vanilla patch (does anybody know?), the barrage promotion line should be ignored in favor of city raider or combat, as appropriate.

Short summary: yes, that's what they are for. But they don't work.

 

[BCampbell]

Interesting info! I'm not sure if I care to do to the work to find out if this is still true in vanilla, or just start using CR promotions.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Interesting info! I'm not sure if I care to do to the work to find out if this is still true in vanilla, or just start using CR promotions.

"The work" should be nothing more than checking the version number: my game claims that 1.74 (from May of 2007) is the most recent available, so the fix hasn't been published in vanilla.

There might be a mod somewhere, I suppose.

 

[CivCorpse]

I might consider barrage for the first 2-3 cats since they are gonna die. After that it's CR all the way.