So, yea. I am trying to figure out some terraforming questions. What exactly does the game mean when improvements say, "gives feature a chance to spread"? And does anyone have any advice on how to use communes for Hybrid factions? Also, how do bio reactors help things spread, and what do they help spread? I am trying to figure out what the hell I am doing... what game settings impact this? I am really confused here, to me it seems like the idea with lots of communes / hybrid forests / bio reactors, is that you put labs on top of anything that can have a hybrid forest under it, and use communes to spawn extra resources, which then get, uh, "eaten" by the appropriate corporations? How exactly should this work or does this work? I am quite confused... thanks!
How do communes/small chance of discovering x/give feature a chance to spread work?
- Thread starter Gavinfoxx
- Start date
The "chance to discover..." ability almost never actually happens from what I've seen, so it's probably just better to play as if it's not there.
Bioreactor spread seems pretty similar, you'll be able ot just use formers and get the features built much faster than otherwise.
A for actually using communes, the one time I've gone hybrid, my strategy has pretty much been to figure out the arrangement that gets the most communes per space, and build in those locations, which isn't that complex a strategy, but I'm not sure if there's some other subtleties I missed.
Bioreactor spread seems pretty similar, you'll be able ot just use formers and get the features built much faster than otherwise.
A for actually using communes, the one time I've gone hybrid, my strategy has pretty much been to figure out the arrangement that gets the most communes per space, and build in those locations, which isn't that complex a strategy, but I'm not sure if there's some other subtleties I missed.
Pfeffersack
Deity
Unless Maniac changed it, the code is probably borrowed from Civ4's mines chance to discover gold/silver/gems - this would be 1/10000 each turn for a worked improvement.
I haven't discovered ressources with the help of a commune yet, but that does not mean a lot - they come late into the game and I have even in a full-hybrid-game a lot less then farms and mines in terraformer games.
Same for me.
I haven't discovered ressources with the help of a commune yet, but that does not mean a lot - they come late into the game and I have even in a full-hybrid-game a lot less then farms and mines in terraformer games.
Pickly said:
Same for me.
Well, is it just me or should the 1/10000 be SERIOUSLY rethought? I mean, since it is such late in the game, shouldn't it instead be a 100% chance of happening... after a certain number of turns worked? That way it can actually be *part of an intentional hybrid builder* type strategy?
Giving a significantly improved chance to discover resources would be pretty clearly overpowered. There's the temple of planet corporation effects that would add up quite quickl, plus the diplomatic advantages for having a lot more resources than anyone else to trade.
As for communes themselves, their plus to planet is actually quite useful. Getting to +10 or even +20 planet rating per base (Which is possible with lots of hybrid forest and good commune placement.) really increases the green heart number (Planet value?), which really helps those worms. You can also build more polluting improvements and still stay green.
To me the discovery resource thing, as said, appears more flavor than anything else.
As for communes themselves, their plus to planet is actually quite useful. Getting to +10 or even +20 planet rating per base (Which is possible with lots of hybrid forest and good commune placement.) really increases the green heart number (Planet value?), which really helps those worms. You can also build more polluting improvements and still stay green.
To me the discovery resource thing, as said, appears more flavor than anything else.
How is getting those overpowered, as for most of the entire game, they are seriously IGNORING a large amount of terraforming options compared to the terraform folk, going for an "extreme late game" utility. To me, that is what the Hybrid option is about -- becoming very powerful in the very long term. And if it requires, say, 40 turns of *working* the commune square, to me that seems to be the sort of "reaping the rewards of living with Planet". Maybe if it only works if there are no polluting resources or polluting improvements in the fat cross? Or maybe it could CONVERT a resource to one that can pop under the commune if it is worked for long enough?
And I would like the hybrid thing to be about more than just warmongering with crazy powerful worms...
And I would like the hybrid thing to be about more than just warmongering with crazy powerful worms...
Pfeffersack
Deity
I agree that a frequent occurance of such findings could really destroy balance. On the other hand, a slight increase (maybe to 1/5000) might be right to compensate for coming into the game late and the two-tile-restriction - if it currently seems to happen never, then it is not right either (even for flavor purposes it has to occur from time to time!)
King Flevance
Deity
I was thinking the exact same number. (1/5000) As it is late game and in Civ it is from turn 1. (Provided you start with mining.) At first I thought 3000, but I think that is too much. You are pretty much garaunteeing it around there. I think 5000 would result in some games where you "make out like a bandit having a significant amount of "spawns" and others maybe not so much, however I think it important to stress that not getting much even at 1/5000 as a rare occurance isn't detramental as it is mostly flavor. That isn't what the "fungus hugging" strategy is about. I like to fungus hug alot in my games as much as possible and use it in different ways as I am learning there are a handful of strategies in it based on circumstances. But when I don't, I am like "**** everybody up including the planet." Which has some consequences but its a hell of alot simpler which IMO is the benefit.
Maniac
Apolyton Sage
Perhaps Bioadaptive Resonance could increase discovery chance? That tech is a completely at the end of the tech tree, so it shouldn't play any role in most games (which is fine be me), but you never know a game drags out for some reason.
Guys, why don't you try this experiment... start a custom game, go to the game editor, give yourself all the "lab or whatever resource works on fungus / doesn't lower planet affinity" and all the "ecological" techs, and use the editor to plop down, oh, 9 or 10 basis, such that every base has at least four communes in the fat cross, maybe with one other "helps the base grow" ecofriendly resource, fill up everything with hybrid forests and sea xenofungus, maybe give all the bases voice of planet and ascetic virtues...
...And then sit, play the game builder-y, and defensively, building up the size of the bases, trying to make sure that the bases are big and keep working the communes. And play, and play, and play.
I have done this a few times, and NOTHING seems to pop! With this already DONE, I think that some resources, somewhere, SHOULD pop... but so far nothing has. To me it seems like something should be happening every few turns, at the "endgame" equivalent...
Is there any way to put the probability of resources popping to be DIRECTLY LINKED with your green heart / planet concordance, augmented by bioreactor and bioadaptive resonance?? Maybe a transcend could go to an enclave and force a pop of a resource??
...And then sit, play the game builder-y, and defensively, building up the size of the bases, trying to make sure that the bases are big and keep working the communes. And play, and play, and play.
I have done this a few times, and NOTHING seems to pop! With this already DONE, I think that some resources, somewhere, SHOULD pop... but so far nothing has. To me it seems like something should be happening every few turns, at the "endgame" equivalent...
Is there any way to put the probability of resources popping to be DIRECTLY LINKED with your green heart / planet concordance, augmented by bioreactor and bioadaptive resonance?? Maybe a transcend could go to an enclave and force a pop of a resource??
King Flevance
Deity
In my latest game I have been playing a hybrid Yang of the Hive and I think the eco-stuff does need something. The ability to build Mag tubes on fungus would be nice as any terraformer has a big mobilization advantage on you if you try and conserve fungus unless you are Diedre.
Of course my strategy with it may be a little off but I find keeping fungus around in a hybrid economy as limiting to anyone but diedre. You can't really improve them beyond +1
and +2 
for quite a while and at most they will have 2 food. Fighting rocky terrain, ridges, AND fungus for mag tubes can be a pain in the ass and you will have to chop some for a full network.
During this time, teraformers are getting edens with fast growth due to the teraform civic and their workers aren't even tied up having to fight back the fungus as the civic removes it for them, all their improvements are not only being built at rapid speed but also growing extremely fast. Farms becoming Edens at the drop of a hat, mines everywhere for production. All while the terraformer is avoiding immediate benefit wherever possible.
We play on Huge maps and the flowering counter does not go up enough to really offer a penalty for this. Perhaps that is where the problem lies. However I think on a smaller map a terraformers benefits are so large that they could easily overrun a hybrid mid game. It's the same mentality of an early UU in Civ. The earlier benefit is the larger benefit. When things start to get hairy for a terra, they can just use a heavy mine city to build planetary databanks and catch up in techs and then make sure to grab the wonder that takes planet attitude up by 1 or up to 1 whichever is more beneficial. That allows the terraformer a 2nd full onslaught against the hybrids who have been avoiding exploiting the land. Which is one of the X's in a 4x game.
I don't think resource pops are a good idea to throw balance in. I think the answer lies in just how restricting fungus is as a hybrid early on and how hard it is to encourage growth. I would like to see the "green" part of the tech tree expanded on and some tougher aliens as well as a 3
unit at a 100 flowering counter is only a 4.5 . And the highest I have seen the flower counter get to is about 50. Which doesn't even make them a 4. However mid game all units get to be 5-7 which means you can afford to get your planet attitude down to -3 before you really have to worry about wildlife. Which basically gets negates the ability to breed wildlife.
Another thought is a somewhat early ability that improves fungus combat for units along the green tech line.
I personally would like it if more civs came in as this would possibly allow huge maps to be viable. I would even be willing to help out wherever I can with this as I love this mod. But I do not know how my limited programming skills would come in handy. I would really like to help out where I can though. Like I said, I love this mod. Probably more than any others out there as the way things overlap and blend is just cool.
Of course my strategy with it may be a little off but I find keeping fungus around in a hybrid economy as limiting to anyone but diedre. You can't really improve them beyond +1
and +2 for quite a while and at most they will have 2 food. Fighting rocky terrain, ridges, AND fungus for mag tubes can be a pain in the ass and you will have to chop some for a full network.During this time, teraformers are getting edens with fast growth due to the teraform civic and their workers aren't even tied up having to fight back the fungus as the civic removes it for them, all their improvements are not only being built at rapid speed but also growing extremely fast. Farms becoming Edens at the drop of a hat, mines everywhere for production. All while the terraformer is avoiding immediate benefit wherever possible.
We play on Huge maps and the flowering counter does not go up enough to really offer a penalty for this. Perhaps that is where the problem lies. However I think on a smaller map a terraformers benefits are so large that they could easily overrun a hybrid mid game. It's the same mentality of an early UU in Civ. The earlier benefit is the larger benefit. When things start to get hairy for a terra, they can just use a heavy mine city to build planetary databanks and catch up in techs and then make sure to grab the wonder that takes planet attitude up by 1 or up to 1 whichever is more beneficial. That allows the terraformer a 2nd full onslaught against the hybrids who have been avoiding exploiting the land. Which is one of the X's in a 4x game.
I don't think resource pops are a good idea to throw balance in. I think the answer lies in just how restricting fungus is as a hybrid early on and how hard it is to encourage growth. I would like to see the "green" part of the tech tree expanded on and some tougher aliens as well as a 3
unit at a 100 flowering counter is only a 4.5 . And the highest I have seen the flower counter get to is about 50. Which doesn't even make them a 4. However mid game all units get to be 5-7 which means you can afford to get your planet attitude down to -3 before you really have to worry about wildlife. Which basically gets negates the ability to breed wildlife.Another thought is a somewhat early ability that improves fungus combat for units along the green tech line.
I personally would like it if more civs came in as this would possibly allow huge maps to be viable. I would even be willing to help out wherever I can with this as I love this mod. But I do not know how my limited programming skills would come in handy. I would really like to help out where I can though. Like I said, I love this mod. Probably more than any others out there as the way things overlap and blend is just cool.
The thing to keep in mind about hybrids is that they gain a lot of "soft" advantages. (As compared to the "hard" advantages of terraformers.) When going pro-planet as a hybrid, you do loose resources that terraformers otherwise would have, but won't suffer direct mind worm attacks (Unless you get unlucky with someone else's fungal bloom), while terraformers have to specifically clear fungus at the edges of territory. They also get the extra culture from the positive planet atitude, the lowered city maintenance is a big help, and there may be other advantages that I'm forgetting.
As for the lack of Mag tubes, the hybrid research path leads to psi gates (which in the current tech tree are at a similar tier as mag tubes), and these help significantly.
(There may very well be slight imbalances between the two civics, but there have been threads in the past complaining that terraformers were underpowered with all the fungal blooms and attacks, so playing style changes might account for these differences.
As for the lack of Mag tubes, the hybrid research path leads to psi gates (which in the current tech tree are at a similar tier as mag tubes), and these help significantly.
(There may very well be slight imbalances between the two civics, but there have been threads in the past complaining that terraformers were underpowered with all the fungal blooms and attacks, so playing style changes might account for these differences.
Pfeffersack
Deity
I would like to see the "green" part of the tech tree expanded on and some tougher aliens as well as a 3
NL units use PSI combat. Weapon Strength of non-NL-opponents gets ignored and is set to 2 or 3, depending on initiative and domain.You have a point with the FC though. Even if you go green it is hard to get it high. The AIs -even green ones- are no big help. Most of my games end with an FC <40. I guess the only way to get it really high is to conquer some Terraformer factions and to turn their lands into fungal areas...
King Flevance
Deity
I was loading up some fresh games and playtesting today and I think it might be a good idea to increase the amount of fungus on the map at the start. Or perhaps increase (double) the natural spread rate of it since it would possibly be lethal to just plop down a whole bunch of extra fungus on turn 1. It seems only 20ish percent of the map is covered in fungus. However, I also think fungus should be able to spread to highlands at +40 FC possibly instead of 60. Maybe 50 by meeting in the middle? As there are large parts of the map that are highlands and alot of the lowlands get blocked off by jungles.
However, you could also allow planting xenofungus earlier. Or have the first tier "biology/science(DNA)" techs allow for the doubling of the growth rate. Even Centauri meditation allowing the planting of xenofungus might help to inadvertantly "fight" or slow down the terras that are already fast at work in the highlands. I would bet that this would allow the FC to be reaching 40 or 50 around the time of Psionics or biofeul. Which is also around the time of Hyperions. Although there really is no advantage of getting hyperians to fight native life as it will always be a 2 or 3 respectively and gains the same bonus as a plasma thrower. So you are really better off just ignoring biofeuls to fight native life as is because there is no real difference between a plasma thrower and a hyperian except for in faction combat but even then its better IMO to go for Gene splicing or Mass Drivers.
I would then suggest giving the hyperian +35% vs. NL, Ogre going up to +40%
However, you could also allow planting xenofungus earlier. Or have the first tier "biology/science(DNA)" techs allow for the doubling of the growth rate. Even Centauri meditation allowing the planting of xenofungus might help to inadvertantly "fight" or slow down the terras that are already fast at work in the highlands. I would bet that this would allow the FC to be reaching 40 or 50 around the time of Psionics or biofeul. Which is also around the time of Hyperions. Although there really is no advantage of getting hyperians to fight native life as it will always be a 2 or 3 respectively and gains the same bonus as a plasma thrower. So you are really better off just ignoring biofeuls to fight native life as is because there is no real difference between a plasma thrower and a hyperian except for in faction combat but even then its better IMO to go for Gene splicing or Mass Drivers.
I would then suggest giving the hyperian +35% vs. NL, Ogre going up to +40%
King Flevance
Deity
I would put psi gates as a tier up from mag tubes.
Mag Propulsion is 2000
Psionics is now 5200
Long before you have the tech researched, let alone have the gates built, terras already have their entire network and bunkers in place due to 75% worker rate from terraform civic that they got a little while back for 1000
By the time you get psi gates, terraformers already have a fully established magtube network, and a fully built economy - edens due to +150% growth rate. and all their fungus is long gone by now. The teraformed civic is a very lethal civic for terraformers. There is absolutley no drawback at all. Whereas terras must take a 2
penalty for a 1 bonus on fungus tiles where a GOOD fungus tile at this point will offer 1-2 
1 and X (usually 1 or 2 tho) So good tiles are bleh under this civic - remeber my cities are only size 5-ish so maybe 5 hammers per city with this? - a technician is better than that bonus with a genejack factory which isn't hard to get around this time and IMO you should be prioritizing it as a hybrid as it is the only way you will compete in production.The number of base maintenance is the smaller of the two types of maintenance but is the only real strength to the civic. I would like to see it encourage fungus growth in your territory, and add +2 PV to all cities. I couldn't care less if the
was there or not. maybe give it to field labs or communes instead or something.********************
But another distinction between a terras mag tube network vs. psi gates is they hold the advantage to meet you in the field for combat when you are invading and use terrain in their advantage with mag tubes. They get 2 movement in their territory, you get 1 when they are invading you. Deirdre can do this as a hyrid because of her trait promotion walk with the planet but no one else can. An invading army gets +50% defense on the way to your cities. A terra however can take those advantages away from you when you are invading them by proper forest and mag tube placement. And have terrain advantage in both your territory and thiers.It might be a good idea to let hybrid civic grant walk with the planet to all of your units that are build while in that civic. Or at least put in a way for hybrids and only hybrids to get walk with the planet.
Also, you can already airlift 1 unit per turn at least from the start of the game. I do this with my workers alot before I ever even get psi gates. Is that intended? If so terras have both airlifting and mag tubes for mobilization advantages.
Also if hybrid is beefed up to match terra, biodomes needs more work. But I am thinking more along the lines of science. I don't know, I haven't used it much. I would be interested to hear from someone that has.
AnotherPacifist
Deity
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Miriam is hard enough as it is on higher levels with the amount of fungus. If there's any fungus I see around me, I usually have to restart because native life start popping up when my city reaches size 4 (i.e. before even I have built enough troops). (On the other hand, with extra careful city placement and clearance of fungus outside your border, she's a monster, I'm about to win with her on emperor).
Best early promotion against native life if you're a terraformer: plasma shard (25% psi attack).
Best early promotion against native life if you're a terraformer: plasma shard (25% psi attack).
King Flevance
Deity
I had a game with Lal a while back on Emporer where I turned my 1m thingy into a rover, and used my scout patrol and my rover to pick up 3 pods and defend my base from an onslaught of mindworms. I wasn't even able to get 1 scout patrol built once. (10 turn build on marathon) I replayed it around 15-20 times before I got tired of loading the saves and just accepted defeat and rolled a new start.
Miriam is not the only person that can get hosed at the start. I do just fine opposing the planet on higher levels (monarch-emperor) Emperors main challenge for me is not wildlife, its competing with AI civs who are always giving me a run for my money in tech. Mainly, Zack, Morgan, and Lal. Miriam starts with firefighters and the ability to chop fungus making her well set up well to defend against wildlife. I don't know what to tell you.
In your recent strategy post you made you said to reroll Miriam if you start out with alot of fungus. There is really no need. Each fungus gives you +.50 (PV) Having 4 around you gives you +2 negating your -1 giving you a total of +1. And you can make flamethrowers from turn 1. You have to hold out on pod exploration but if you are not going for a speed victory (which I realize your post was about) Miriam is at no REAL disadvantage here. She gets flamethrowers and the ability to chop down fungus.
There are plenty of ways to fight wildlife in the game and as is, it offers no real threat. Especially if you work your strategies off of the PF and FC which I think everyone, terraformers included should do. There are psi defense and attack abilities and many ways to combat the natives. I have mostly played terras but when I go into the hybrid model I see all kinds of spots as to why it is so easy to dominate as a terra. Hybrids suck and are sitting ducks throughout most of the game.
Look at all the positive effects of terra and honestly compare them to the effects of hybrid. Note the synergy of terra and lack thereof for hybrid aside from how good or lame the benefits are but also consider that too. Then take into acount that more terras = lower FC counter. Then consider that nothing really encourages fungus growth that the hybrid player can do until late game. (where terra can have already acheived game conclusive power) Where is the Hybrid players advantage? It fails all of these marks to terras. By the sounds of it they were nerfed too heavily. Beat so hard with the nerf stick they don't seem to be getting back up.
Miriam is not the only person that can get hosed at the start. I do just fine opposing the planet on higher levels (monarch-emperor) Emperors main challenge for me is not wildlife, its competing with AI civs who are always giving me a run for my money in tech. Mainly, Zack, Morgan, and Lal. Miriam starts with firefighters and the ability to chop fungus making her well set up well to defend against wildlife. I don't know what to tell you.
In your recent strategy post you made you said to reroll Miriam if you start out with alot of fungus. There is really no need. Each fungus gives you +.50 (PV) Having 4 around you gives you +2 negating your -1 giving you a total of +1. And you can make flamethrowers from turn 1. You have to hold out on pod exploration but if you are not going for a speed victory (which I realize your post was about) Miriam is at no REAL disadvantage here. She gets flamethrowers and the ability to chop down fungus.
There are plenty of ways to fight wildlife in the game and as is, it offers no real threat. Especially if you work your strategies off of the PF and FC which I think everyone, terraformers included should do. There are psi defense and attack abilities and many ways to combat the natives. I have mostly played terras but when I go into the hybrid model I see all kinds of spots as to why it is so easy to dominate as a terra. Hybrids suck and are sitting ducks throughout most of the game.
Look at all the positive effects of terra and honestly compare them to the effects of hybrid. Note the synergy of terra and lack thereof for hybrid aside from how good or lame the benefits are but also consider that too. Then take into acount that more terras = lower FC counter. Then consider that nothing really encourages fungus growth that the hybrid player can do until late game. (where terra can have already acheived game conclusive power) Where is the Hybrid players advantage? It fails all of these marks to terras. By the sounds of it they were nerfed too heavily. Beat so hard with the nerf stick they don't seem to be getting back up.
AnotherPacifist
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Well, I call it a real threat when every turn late game, there's at least 4-8 spawned natives in my borders, only to be controlled by bunkers everywhere.
It's not the planet attitude that matter but the size of your city. So Miriam being the breeder that she is, her cities grow very quickly to size 4 and that's when the 4 natives (with or without fungal towers) spawn right next to you and kill you when you don't have enough firepower to kill them. I routinely build the Centauri Preserve which doesn't seem to do a whole lot.
It's not the planet attitude that matter but the size of your city. So Miriam being the breeder that she is, her cities grow very quickly to size 4 and that's when the 4 natives (with or without fungal towers) spawn right next to you and kill you when you don't have enough firepower to kill them. I routinely build the Centauri Preserve which doesn't seem to do a whole lot.
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