How do you deal with barbarian galleys?

[GrayingGamer]

Well I just quit a game...

Started on some snaky continent, huge map, monarchy difficulty.

Didn't meet any other civs. Had 4 warriors out killing fog along nearby coastlines.

That didn't stop a galley from appearing off screen and coming in to wreck my 3 clams that were the only resources I had going for me. I whipped out a galley to fight it, but of course I lost (I didn't attack, of course, just defended...)

Is there some trick I'm missing? Having a fleet of transport ships to fight off barbarians in rotten luck encounters is only viable once I've gotten at least once city really churning out a lot of production, and even then it's pretty frustrating. And the barb galleys seem willing to travel quite a distance to ruin my day.

 

[99wattr89]

They're a constant annoyance, forcing me to maintain naval units that are otherwise useless. I really wish aquatic resources weren't pillagable.

 

[Ghpstage]

There is no cost efficient way to beat barb galleys by fighting, theres no solid counter, no defensive terrain and they spawn so often its ridiculous. Don't think the spawn rates been fixed even in 3.19

There are 2 game rules that govern barb Galleys that can be used against them;
They can only move into your culture if they can 'see' a pillageable resource, the sight range is 7 tiles (I think ). So by selectively settling and possibly even avoiding improving one specific seafood resources, you can prevent galleys entering your borders

The other is that barbs cannot spawn in your sight area, and cannot spawn within 2 tiles of any unit (regardless of sight). This one is standard 'fogbusting' useful on any map where barbs will be an issue.

 

[GrayingGamer]

Ok, good to know. Other than filling the entire continent with warriors, I guess I could use a settler as a sort of blockade city in a strategic spot.

 

[Birdman6]

The only thing I can think of is going after him with 2 ships of your own. If the 1st one loses you can follow up w/ the 2nd so the barb doesn't escape w/ a promotion. It's just a hassle wasting hammers on 2 ships.

 

[GrayingGamer]

Yeah, I realize that's pretty much the sure-fire way to win (although you'll still have to replace one of the galleys a significant portion of the time), but it's a LOT of hammers to spend on something that won't have much other use for a long long time.

Even the promotions are somewhat wasted since they'll be on transport vessels.

 

[sydhe]

Also research Metal Casting. Triremes were born to slay galleys.

 

[Birdman6]

Yeah, I realize that's pretty much the sure-fire way to win (although you'll still have to replace one of the galleys a significant portion of the time), but it's a LOT of hammers to spend on something that won't have much other use for a long long time.

Even the promotions are somewhat wasted since they'll be on transport vessels.

Well you can then use the galleys to explore coastline and nearby islands (if geographically possible). Also, if your clams are getting consistently harassed then I'd consider defending them a worthwhile effort, and in the long run you save hammers by not having to build 10 new workboats.

I agree the promotions get screwed up, but you could go for Flanking 1/2 & Navigation 1, the latter of which is excellent for future transports.

 

[The Snug]

Also research Metal Casting. Triremes were born to slay galleys.

If you are relying on seafood, then you really need to prioritize metal casting, which is a great tech anyway, allowing forges and triremes (+50% power against galleys). I think forges are vastly underrated, not only do they provide the obvious 25% production bonus, but they also increase the happy cap with access to gems, gold or silver--that second ability alone can cause a scientific revolution and also provide some Great Engineers.

If you're relying on Galleys to defend your seafood, then you had better always double them up specifically to avoid losing the duel.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If you are relying on seafood, then you really need to prioritize metal casting, which is a great tech anyway, allowing forges and triremes (+50% power against galleys). I think forges are vastly underrated, not only do they provide the obvious 25% production bonus, but they also increase the happy cap with access to gems, gold or silver--that second ability alone can cause a scientific revolution and also provide some Great Engineers.

If you're relying on Galleys to defend your seafood, then you had better always double them up specifically to avoid losing the duel.

Metal casting is an expensive technology and on high difficulties the galleys will come before you can trade for it. Researching it directly is very frequently a poor move.

 

[sydhe]

I try to get Metal Casting through the Oracle. If I don't get it that way, then I deal with barbarian galleys by swearing at the computer.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

I try to get Metal Casting through the Oracle. If I don't get it that way, then I deal with barbarian galleys by swearing at the computer.

Hmmm. I have to research Metal Casting, I'm afraid. In over a year of playing, I have never made it to the Oracle before the AI.

I can hear the barbarians, in their shiny galleys, laughing away...

And believe me, my computer has heard it all. In a couple of languages...

 

[The Snug]

Metal casting is an expensive technology and on high difficulties the galleys will come before you can trade for it. Researching it directly is very frequently a poor move.

Depends on how well you leverage it's advantages. +50% production (with OR) is quite powerful, especially when building wonders and chopping and whipping.

 

[IronCrown]

In all of my games (and I play a lot) barbarian galleys appear so rarely that I usually "forget" to build any ships of my own. Then eventually a galley will appear and destroy some fishing boats. But it's never more than a minor annoyance which I could also easily avoid if I wouldn't always forget... (I play Emperor btw)

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Depends on how well you leverage it's advantages. +50% production (with OR) is quite powerful, especially when building wonders and chopping and whipping.

OR is an irrelevant consideration to this discussion. It has nothing to do with leveraging forges at all.

Now that that is out of the way, you're still mistaken. If you have metal casting by 750 BC, one of the following is probably true:

1. You oracle'd it, which can be decent especially if you have copper and can use colossus effectively. Bonus points for IND here since the forge is actually a worthwhile investment for that trait early in the game.
2. You are playing a very high difficulty, got aesthetics, alphabet, code of laws, drama, or something else, and traded for metal casting because enough AIs have it that they're already willing to trade it (or Mansa is nearby who trades monopoly techs). When this is the case, however, barb galleys usually aren't a problem because you're bordering a few computers.
3. You chose it over alphabet, aesthetics, literature, code of laws, currency, drama, or monarchy.

If you ran #1 and can take full advantage of some bonus and the colossus fits your situation, forges are fine IN HAMMER CITIES.

If you hit option #2 you might as well trade for it. Trade opportunities don't last forever, especially not on the kind of difficulty where this actually happens. Maybe you can even broker it a little if the tech whore is the one you got it from.

If you are going with option 3, it is a virtual certainty that you're slowing your tech rate down. A converter tech or a much higher cap is too important. If you have marble earlier great library/national epic destroy anything you're going to do with forges.

In non-hammer cities non-IND forges are a poor investment and may be worth forgoing until even after universities.

Going MC just to protect seafood? Nonsense. It's unnecessary and damaging. Just culture-wall, spawnbust, work boat dance, or use galleys to defend that one trouble spot the other methods can't cover.

 

[The Snug]

OR is an irrelevant consideration to this discussion. It has nothing to do with leveraging forges at all.

Now that that is out of the way, you're still mistaken. If you have metal casting by 750 BC, one of the following is probably true:

1. You oracle'd it, which can be decent especially if you have copper and can use colossus effectively. Bonus points for IND here since the forge is actually a worthwhile investment for that trait early in the game.
2. You are playing a very high difficulty, got aesthetics, alphabet, code of laws, drama, or something else, and traded for metal casting because enough AIs have it that they're already willing to trade it (or Mansa is nearby who trades monopoly techs). When this is the case, however, barb galleys usually aren't a problem because you're bordering a few computers.
3. You chose it over alphabet, aesthetics, literature, code of laws, currency, drama, or monarchy.

If you ran #1 and can take full advantage of some bonus and the colossus fits your situation, forges are fine IN HAMMER CITIES.

If you hit option #2 you might as well trade for it. Trade opportunities don't last forever, especially not on the kind of difficulty where this actually happens. Maybe you can even broker it a little if the tech whore is the one you got it from.

If you are going with option 3, it is a virtual certainty that you're slowing your tech rate down. A converter tech or a much higher cap is too important. If you have marble earlier great library/national epic destroy anything you're going to do with forges.

In non-hammer cities non-IND forges are a poor investment and may be worth forgoing until even after universities.

Going MC just to protect seafood? Nonsense. It's unnecessary and damaging. Just culture-wall, spawnbust, work boat dance, or use galleys to defend that one trouble spot the other methods can't cover.

Couldn't disagree more. OR is relevant. I'm an all farms and mines guy, and my whole goal is to become more productive than everyone else as quickly as possible. All of my cities are hammer cities. Each of my cities possess more base hammers than the ai, and more multipliers for those base hammers. When I'm at +50% while some of the other civs are at +25% and most are at +0%, that is significant. My game revolves around food and productivity. Forges are essential to that style. Most of those other techs are pretty useless to me.

 

[Gooblah]

Build a Galley. Park on Seafood resource. Let Barb galley attack our Galley (which has 10% coastal defense bonus). Hopefully, our guy wins, gets Combat I, and unleashes whoopass on the next barb to come his way. If not, whip another Galley. Repeat.

 

[IronCrown]

Couldn't disagree more.

Me too. Production is ultimately the most important thing in the game. In 9 out of 10 games the civ which outproduces all others will win. Production decides Space Races as well as Domination/Conquest. It doesn't matter whether you are a little later at SS techs than the AI if you can build the parts in half the time. And you can beat an AI with superior units if your war machine churns out double the units.

I always build forges as soon as they become available. That said, I do not usually beeline for Metal Casting. But if I get the Oracle (which does not happen too often because I rarely follow that line in the tech tree early) I often take MC as bonus tech. Though if I already have a lot of cities I'll prefer CoL.

edit: Being a production superpower also speeds up Cultural wins a lot because you can build all those temples and cathedrals much faster. You also have much better chances to get the late culture wonders (Hollywood, Broadway etc).

Having a production monster Capital is also decisive because such a city can accumulate many wonders which will provide Great People points will get you many Great People which will get you more hammers which will get you more wonders and so on. There are of course other strategies but this one is so effective that I'm actually becoming tired of it and try to use other, less-effective strategies

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Couldn't disagree more. OR is relevant.

You can say it's relevant. And I can say that I'm having a pet elephant type this for me. They are equally true. (my keyboard is intact, by the way).

It's not a matter of disagreeing or not: you are adding information that is irrelevant to this decision making process.

Anybody can take advantage of the OR hammers, independent of the presence of forges. That is a FACT. They come with separate technologies and pre-requisites for use. I'll pass on discussing why OR might not always be the best (or even possible) option for the purposes of this thread.

If you couldn't build forges for some reason, would you forgo OR? If you didn't have OR, would forges suddenly become useless? Get OR out of this discussion, it's useless for considering the value of forges. It has great merits but it has nothing to do with barb galleys at all.

I'm an all farms and mines guy

Each of my cities possess more base hammers than the ai, and more multipliers for those base hammers.

Early in the game, available mines are finite. Any claim that you have more base hammers than the AI during the time period where MC for barb galleys is an option is entirely based on the terrain available to you...in an average game you will not have any more mines than me or anybody else (unless they are cottaging their grassland hills or something). Read: you will not have more base hammers for the time period of MC vs the other techs is a relevant consideration in this thread. I'll address why you probably have less base hammers in a minute. The multiplier advantage is probably true, but is that really a better investment than more workers, settlers, or faster military? Than higher ROI libraries?

When I'm at +50% while some of the other civs are at +25% and most are at +0%, that is significant.

Another baseless claim. It might be true, it might not be true. First, I am again removing your *completely irrelevant* 25% OR bonus from this discussion. Now, we have the more relevant consideration: does teching metal casting and building forges before 500 BC have a higher return on investment than its alternatives?

Very situational. Very. What if you have that seafood that causes you to "prioritize" metal casting, and not a single gold, silver, or gem resource available to you? Or even if you do have one or can trade for it? +2 ? You can work 2 more tiles. Let's be nice and make them 2 more grassland hill mines. 6 base hammers, 25% bonus. 1.5 hammers.

Whoops, someone went aesthetics or alphabet to trade (or otherwise got to monarchy sooner) and got to work an extra mine on top of the 2 you had. Oh look! 3 hammers. Double the output of a forge, which by the way requires up-front hammer investment...from working more tiles!

If the mines aren't there we can substitute grassland farms or whatever you want. The fact of the matter is that if there are good tiles to be worked, going MC to the delay of other techs is going to keep you from working those tiles, and that is going to put you back. Now, if you have all 3 mineral resources and the forge is worth +3 , the investment in it isn't as bad. It's situational, but you're way off base always prioritizing them. +25% of 6 has nothing on +0% of 9. A % increase still needs a better base.

My game revolves around food and productivity. Forges are essential to that style. Most of those other techs are pretty useless to me.

. So, let me get this straight:

- Techs that let you work more tiles? Useless.
- Techs that allow direct conversion of to or , which gets multiplied by the forge? Useless.
- Techs that triple your effective research rate oftentimes? Useless.
- Techs that allow you to afford additional cities...bearing in mind that more cities can also be thought of as "base hammers"? Useless.
- Tile improvements that allow you to afford more cities before they're settled by opponents? Also useless.



Leaving aside that you were saying on another thread that warmongers are fundamentally flawed and that warmongering is the only viable thing you can do with hammers if you are focusing on them so much without your converter techs in the BCs, it sounds to me like you are severely stifling your food and production by limiting your caps and researching a tech that frequently gives you a poor trade return.

Don't get caught up in % bonuses on small base amounts. You have other priorities than forges early game in a lot of games (note that sometimes MC truly is a worthwhile early investment, it's just rare that you'd get it before the techs I listed in most games).

Your logic sounds like the kind of person who would whip a library in a cottage city, removing citizens from cottages for "25% more research", even though doing that makes your research worse. It seems from the post I quoted that you don't use this tile improvement even if it can pay for more expansion, but it remains a good analogy.

Another analogy is to avoid expansion because it drops your slider, ignoring that 30% of 100 is more than 60% of 40 or 100% of 10. This is exactly what you've said you do, but with hammers.

 

[Draknith]

Build a Galley. Park on Seafood resource. Let Barb galley attack our Galley (which has 10% coastal defense bonus). Hopefully, our guy wins, gets Combat I, and unleashes whoopass on the next barb to come his way. If not, whip another Galley. Repeat.

This is pretty much what I will do at the begining of the game. However, a lot of times I actually wait to get the sea food resources hooked up until I can protect them, and work on developing my land around the cities.

Of course if I'm in a situation where the game sets me up as a sea power, I will generally go for the sea techs, then get some galleys out, and set-up the sea resources. For me it's really game specific. Most the times my navies don't get going until the renessance (sp).