How do you decide your policy?

[Dawnpromise]

It does eliminate illiteracy almost by itself (at least in the first half of the game).

G

So does a scientist specialist in most cases....while also providing some culture against boredom and great scientist points.

I just feel the academy doesn't compete compared to other GP-tiles.
Manufactory gives production which is ALWAYS good at the cost of an opportunity to near-insta build a wonder.
Town grants gold/food/something to put in-between villages on city connections at the trade of not getting a flood of money and 'we love the king' day.
Citadel grants border expansion and a defense against invaders.
Academy grants a bit of extra science at the cost 1-2 techs getting instantly finished.

If an academy gave a little of another yield (like culture or production) I'd value it more.

Right now a simple kuna at least guarantees food and production from the forest it's on in addition to science and faith, and I"m fairly certain that a unique improvement is't meant to outclass a GP-tile.

 

[tu_79]

So does a scientist specialist in most cases....while also providing some culture against boredom and great scientist points.

I just feel the academy doesn't compete compared to other GP-tiles.
Manufactory gives production which is ALWAYS good at the cost of an opportunity to near-insta build a wonder.
Town grants gold/food/something to put in-between villages on city connections at the trade of not getting a flood of money and 'we love the king' day.
Citadel grants border expansion and a defense against invaders.
Academy grants a bit of extra science at the cost 1-2 techs getting instantly finished.

If an academy gave a little of another yield (like culture or production) I'd value it more.

Right now a simple kuna at least guarantees food and production from the forest it's on in addition to science and faith, and I"m fairly certain that a unique improvement is't meant to outclass a GP-tile.

Academy also increases base science production, so next scientist spent in research does better.

 

[CrazyG]

So does a scientist specialist in most cases....while also providing some culture against boredom and great scientist points.

I just feel the academy doesn't compete compared to other GP-tiles.
Manufactory gives production which is ALWAYS good at the cost of an opportunity to near-insta build a wonder.
Town grants gold/food/something to put in-between villages on city connections at the trade of not getting a flood of money and 'we love the king' day.
Citadel grants border expansion and a defense against invaders.
Academy grants a bit of extra science at the cost 1-2 techs getting instantly finished.

If an academy gave a little of another yield (like culture or production) I'd value it more.

Right now a simple kuna at least guarantees food and production from the forest it's on in addition to science and faith, and I"m fairly certain that a unique improvement is't meant to outclass a GP-tile.

You seem to be viewing any tile that provides science as the same which is odd. The academy gives more science than anything else, yes the Kuna provides other stuff but much less science. scientists themselves provide less, consume food vs produce it (by renaissance this difference is huge). I generally don't like civs with unique improvements as tradition for largely the reason you pointed out.

Manufactory gives much less production than an academy gives science. Towns are a very strong tile but the merchant specialist itself is generally not that great. Do you consider science a weak yield? I certainly do not

Try a game with academies then play a game without, and on turn 200 let me know which has more science, I guarantee its the academy. I think the proof is in results, how fast can you launch space ships with a 20 city empire and no academies? If you beat 300 turns I'll reconsider, but I'm willing to be that strategy won't even get close. Even outside of the actual science victory leading on techs has obvious benefits.

 

[Dawnpromise]

You seem to be viewing any tile that provides science as the same which is odd. The academy gives more science than anything else, yes the Kuna provides other stuff but much less science. scientists themselves provide less, consume food vs produce it (by renaissance this difference is huge). I generally don't like civs with unique improvements as tradition for largely the reason you pointed out.

Manufactory gives much less production than an academy gives science. Towns are a very strong tile but the merchant specialist itself is generally not that great. Do you consider science a weak yield? I certainly do not

Try a game with academies then play a game without, and on turn 200 let me know which has more science, I guarantee its the academy. I think the proof is in results, how fast can you launch space ships with a 20 city empire and no academies? If you beat 300 turns I'll reconsider, but I'm willing to be that strategy won't even get close. Even outside of the actual science victory leading on techs has obvious benefits.

Actually, yes I do consider science a weak yield. Or at the very least I consider it a yield of diminishing value similar to faith. It may always be useful but I don't see it as being better then culture or production, in fact I'd argue that I'd put food as being of greater or equal value as a yield. And because of science being a diminishing value tile-yield I don't value academies highly because science is the ONLY thing academies offer, which while potent in terms of 1-1 yields lose appeal when I'd rather have a farm to give food so I can work more science specialists.

Personally I wish the Academy gave up a bit of its science for other yields or had more policies to boost the academy output in other areas.
I'm not saying Academies are bad improvements out-right. They're still better then mose standard improvement. I'm just saying they are the weakest GP-improvement.

Also I feel this thread has gone wildly off-topic, but I suppose general discussion opens up to that sort of thing.

 

[CrazyG]

Actually, yes I do consider science a weak yield. Or at the very least I consider it a yield of diminishing value similar to faith. It may always be useful but I don't see it as being better then culture or production, in fact I'd argue that I'd put food as being of greater or equal value as a yield. And because of science being a diminishing value tile-yield I don't value academies highly because science is the ONLY thing academies offer, which while potent in terms of 1-1 yields lose appeal when I'd rather have a farm to give food so I can work more science specialists.

Personally I wish the Academy gave up a bit of its science for other yields or had more policies to boost the academy output in other areas.
I'm not saying Academies are bad improvements out-right. They're still better then mose standard improvement. I'm just saying they are the weakest GP-improvement.

Also I feel this thread has gone wildly off-topic, but I suppose general discussion opens up to that sort of thing.

To go back on topic, the reason tall play can work if because you have a pool of resources which do not scale with city number. This would include trade routes, guilds, national wonders, some policy benefits, some religious benefits, and some UA benefits. Wide empire do get slightly more scientiests, engineers or merchants but are very slow to do so. By spreading these tools among a small number of cities you make each city very powerful. Its most noticeable with science and culture and allows these tall empires to either get ahead of wide, or stay at the same level with a much smaller investment. Its also very beneficial towards building wonders and naturally easy to fight unhappiness.

I'll repeat my point made earlier, show me a 20 city empire hit a turn 300 spaceship or a turn 180 ideology. These are objectively powerful things that can tall play can do.

My last thing on academies, I don't know why you would value tech now via bursting scientists but not value per turn science, it doesn't make sense. You are investing in science either way and taking a citizen to work an academy has a small opportunity cost compared to the buildings or specialists

 

[vyyt]

I still think the fact that you can buy any unit in any city w/ o the necessary buildings as long as you pop your religion (so bring a missionary w/ your satellite city) is kinda imbalanced

On the other hand you "waste" a belief slot on something that does not help you with science, gold, culture or anything that helps your empire to grow.

 

[ElliotS]

On the other hand you "waste" a belief slot on something that does not help you with science, gold, culture or anything that helps your empire to grow.

Also remember that there are plenty of other good ways to spend your faith. Zealotry is great, but not without opportunity cost.

 

[vyyt]

Also remember that there are plenty of other good ways to spend your faith. Zealotry is great, but not without opportunity cost.

Yes, this is what I meant. I war a lot, but I have never even considered picking Zealotry.

 

[emdash]

Yes, this is what I meant. I war a lot, but I have never even considered picking Zealotry.

man you should try it haha. I dunno if the balance changes with epic speed or what, but it's pretty strong. It might not be the best policy in the game, but it's exceptionally strong for the way I play. You can still get use out of it, like I have said, by gifting units to CS. The gain is that you don't have to produce units or buy them. Or buildings, so you are actually 'helping your empire grow' in that way. It's obviously not amazing on a sea map, and yea there are other things, for sure, but w/ Monte I think it's the best synergy. Although, I am fond of being able to purchase great people and purchasing universities+ with faith, GP tend to get really expensive. Being able to pop 1 top tier unit per turn (give or take) at war in any city is pretty strong, to me.

I am just razzing Elliot cuz I think he knows what's up about it. I feel like in Vanilla you had to get pre industrial or post industrial units, right? So, this is definitely a welcome step up from that.

 

[ElliotS]

Yes, this is what I meant. I war a lot, but I have never even considered picking Zealotry.

I am just razzing Elliot cuz I think he knows what's up about it. I feel like in Vanilla you had to get pre industrial or post industrial units, right? So, this is definitely a welcome step up from that.

Yeah, it's real good if you're a warmonger. That's kind of the point. Being able to save hammers/gold by faith buying units in a way gives you extra production, and I've had wars I've won by spamming 240 faith knights into 1 tier up AI musketmen. TFW you're the AI, right?

It's hardly without opportunity cost or an auto-win or anything, but it is a very good policy for it's niche. I'd recommend it if you're planning on stabbing everyone in the face and would rather (somewhat) free units over happiness or whatever. The strategic resources are also very nice.

Give it a try next time you're warmongering vyyt. (remember to go piety) I used to ignore it but now it's one of my favorite beliefs.

 

[Bromar1]

Actually, yes I do consider science a weak yield. Or at the very least I consider it a yield of diminishing value similar to faith. It may always be useful but I don't see it as being better then culture or production, in fact I'd argue that I'd put food as being of greater or equal value as a yield. And because of science being a diminishing value tile-yield I don't value academies highly because science is the ONLY thing academies offer, which while potent in terms of 1-1 yields lose appeal when I'd rather have a farm to give food so I can work more science specialists.

Personally I wish the Academy gave up a bit of its science for other yields or had more policies to boost the academy output in other areas.
I'm not saying Academies are bad improvements out-right. They're still better then mose standard improvement. I'm just saying they are the weakest GP-improvement.

Also I feel this thread has gone wildly off-topic, but I suppose general discussion opens up to that sort of thing.

I find academies underwhelming too. I may build one with my first one or two great scientists but after that it's not really worth it. By Renaissance era, it usually would take 200+ turns of a citizen locked on that tile to make as much science as you would get from just bulbing the scientist -- more time than there is even left before a time victory!

 

[ElliotS]

I find academies underwhelming too. I may build one with my first one or two great scientists but after that it's not really worth it. By Renaissance era, it usually would take 200+ turns of a citizen locked on that tile to make as much science as you would get from just bulbing the scientist -- more time than there is even left before a time victory!

Remember that the science yields of academies go up over time, so sometimes Renaissance academies are still good ideas.

FWIW Industrial plus I always bulb, and I still bulb in Renaissance 85% of the time too. (Because science now > science later normally.)

 

[CrazyG]

I find academies underwhelming too. I may build one with my first one or two great scientists but after that it's not really worth it. By Renaissance era, it usually would take 200+ turns of a citizen locked on that tile to make as much science as you would get from just bulbing the scientist -- more time than there is even left before a time victory!

Just things to consider
-You can plant academies in cities with lots of science modifiers, meaning that it earns much more than the base yield. You can hit around +100% modifiers
-They can provide additional yields if you choose the correct social polices and pass world congress proposals
-They will increase how much science you get from bulbing scientists in the future

I will admit that I have never done the math on academy vs discover so its very possible I discover too late. I'm not saying that you should always plant, if you are playing wider with no synergies bulbing is certainly correct. But we got to this off topic discussion from a discussion of how tall can work, and stacking great person tiles and % multipliers in a single city is one way to do it, and I really think the key building for it is the academy.