How does the AI do this?

[dante alighieri]

I don't mean this to sound as sour as it probably will. Its more of me having to rant to get it out of my system.

Two things I've heard about the AI are that it doesn't "cheat" (especially at noble level) and that it doesn't specifically target the human player. Its supposed to react and treat all opponents equally. I'd really like to believe that but one of those things seems to be untrue.

In a recent game I played Egypt and carefully placed my cities and watched my economy at the games start. The idea being to get a good chunk of the continent without crippling research. To maintain an army strong enough to fight and win if my opponents attacked and to achieve scientific dominance as soon as possible. Sure, I'll trade techs, but I'll do my darndest to make sure I come out ahead in as many deals as I can.

Heck, it worked, too. I even fought a minor war with Monty which cost him more than it cost me. (He wasted his units by marching them all through incan territory ony to be put to the sword when they emerged on my border.) I founded a religion, and spread it around too. My closest rivals in distance and tech were Peter and the Skinny Inca Guy. (I can't spell his name, but i actually hate that guy) Heres where I get frustrated. I checked with my AI opponents every two or three turns to see what if any tech they had that I may not. I understand that the AI may trade amonst themselves but I swear its like they all of a sudden learned three or four advances in the space of a few turns. And I'm not talking all of them, just the big three on my continent, SIG, Peter and Cyrus. But hey, I was ahead of all of them 2 turns ago!!! Now i watched announcements to see who has a Great Scientist and so on, so I could make an effort to see if they were going to pop a tech from it. But even with trading going on I don't see how this works. I suppose they could have traded stuff and al.....but when I offer a trade for tech its either no, or the tech is in red anyway. But one of them must have traded it to the other since they ALL have it. So the AI must be singling me out as the human player. Otherwise why would it trade a tech to another AI that quite literally couldn't possibly have offered it anything close to what I could have?

And someone gave Monty Rifling. So wait a minute, he hasn't harrassed anyone but ME and Churchill the entire game? Since Monty starts these wars why do the other civs even trust him? When I checked he still hadn't discovered most of the earlier techs...in essence he was in the stone age when the rest of us were using firearms. So someone traded rifling to him? For WHAT? He didn't have anything! He was a joke as far as threats go at tha point and he was broke! So the AI will trade with a pyscho fruitbar nutcase like Monty who has actually started wars than trade with me who has NEVER attacked any of them and traded fairly with them for the most part? So the AI doesn't single out the human player......rigghhhht.....

Yes, I've heard that you can't always see what the AI has in order of coin, only how much it is willing to spend and some techs won't show up. But that doesn't make sense to me. What good is the screen then if its not giving me accurate info? Don't tell me civ A has 100 gold if they really have 2000 gold. I'm having a hard time believing the designers would make it like that since it makes no sense.

I don't get it, really. I really want to believe that theres no back door cheating going on with tha AI at this level and there probably isn't....but its getting harder to believe that in some of my games.

 

[KMadCandy]

I suppose they could have traded stuff and al.....but when I offer a trade for tech its either no, or the tech is in red anyway. But one of them must have traded it to the other since they ALL have it. So the AI must be singling me out as the human player. Otherwise why would it trade a tech to another AI that quite literally couldn't possibly have offered it anything close to what I could have?

techs can be red for trading for different reasons. sometimes that's the We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advanced issue that makes things redded out. the WFYABTA limits are identical for the player and the AI, and so are the ways to get exceptions to those limits.

this can result in cases where no matter how much you're willing to offer them for a tech, even if you'd give them 50,000 beakers worth of tech and 12,000g for an 8k tech, they can't even consider the option. if that's what's going on, it's not that "civ A and civ B trading because the AI is cheating and like the AI more than it likes the human", it's just applying the WFYABTA rules, which do apply to them too. WFYABTA can sometimes create situations where a human at the limit hurts the AI as much or more than as it limits the human, and that can look like cheating since they're taking worse deals than you'd offer deals if you had the chance.

Yes, I've heard that you can't always see what the AI has in order of coin, only how much it is willing to spend and some techs won't show up. But that doesn't make sense to me. What good is the screen then if its not giving me accurate info? Don't tell me civ A has 100 gold if they really have 2000 gold. I'm having a hard time believing the designers would make it like that since it makes no sense.

they are willing to trade only a certain amount of their gold. i suppose that's to protect them and make sure they have a rainy day fund for their oh-so-cheap unit upgrade costs. you can prove this to yourself by putting a spy in an AI city and inspecting the city screen.

techs that they have will always show up on the tech screen, assuming that one of you knows alphabet and that you have the pre-reqs for the tech, so that you could actually trade for it. if you for example don't know physics, you won't see if he has electricity, you're blocked at physics. but there's never a case where they hide what techs they have; if they know it, you know that they know it, altho it might be redded out.

yes it certainly can be frustrating and definitely feel free to rant if you want to! just posting in case understanding some of the reasons might help your frustration level, or adjust your tactics or something.

 

[Chemtech]

I've had that feeling before too - it seems that if they are close to parity with each other and not actively at war that they give eachother sweetheart deals.

The other thing that seems to happen (although I really doubt its actually coded this way) is that all 3 of them research something different and then immediatly manage to work a 3 way round robin trade where they all end up with all 3 techs. Drive me insane to be one tech ahead on one turn and 2 techs behind on the very next turn.

Best way to avoid this situation is beeline axes/swords and kick the teeth in of your nearest 1-2 neighbors and take everything theyve got - then youre operating with the land and cities of 3 civs instead of 1

 

[automator]

Here's where I get frustrated. I checked with my AI opponents every two or three turns to see what if any tech they had that I may not. I understand that the AI may trade amonst themselves but I swear its like they all of a sudden learned three or four advances in the space of a few turns.

There's where you're getting missed. If you notice, the AI pops up the moment something they want is available. They don't wait a couple turns. Start a game and see how the turn that one of you researches Writing, they'll ask for Open Borders.

So what's happening, in effect, is that the AI is checking with the other AI every single turn to see what techs are available to trade. If you're really intent at keeping up, you'll do the same. Also, if you trade one tech to an AI, assume that they'll trade it to the other AIs unless you beat them to it -- so when you're the first to get a highly desireable tech, trade it to everyone, not just your friends. It might hurt knowing that you just gave your sworn enemy a copy of Philosophy for an old Compass, but better you get that Compass than someone else.

 

[NKVD]

this is why i ply without tech trading

 

[Spitefire]

Mebey the trade system would be better if the ones that hate you still traded with you except for the stubborn ones (Tokugawa comes to mind) the diffrance would be that thay would jack up the price depending on how much thay hate your guts except when it is a tech that thay are ether building a wonder to or need for a victory thay are trying to get.

Is it just me or did Alpha Centari have better AI patterns then this game? (i would look myself except my Operrating system wont let me play it anymore)

 

[gallego]

Is it just me or did Alpha Centari have better AI patterns then this game? (i would look myself except my Operrating system wont let me play it anymore)

I remember the AI in SMAC as quite good too, now that you mention it. Might just be nostalgia though.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

There's where you're getting missed. If you notice, the AI pops up the moment something they want is available. They don't wait a couple turns. Start a game and see how the turn that one of you researches Writing, they'll ask for Open Borders.

So what's happening, in effect, is that the AI is checking with the other AI every single turn to see what techs are available to trade. If you're really intent at keeping up, you'll do the same. Also, if you trade one tech to an AI, assume that they'll trade it to the other AIs unless you beat them to it -- so when you're the first to get a highly desireable tech, trade it to everyone, not just your friends. It might hurt knowing that you just gave your sworn enemy a copy of Philosophy for an old Compass, but better you get that Compass than someone else.

I can attest that this is often what's really going on with those "round robin" trades.

The AI essentially has the benefit of automatically consulting the Foreign Advisor every turn to see what new techs, resources and gold are available for trading.

If you want to participate in more round robin trading, get yourself into the habit of frequently pressing <F4> for an update. I started doing this and found myself being 'out-traded' far less frequently.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Or you can install the HOF mod which can alert you when new tech trades become available. I wouldn't play without it now.

 

[dante alighieri]

There's where you're getting missed. If you notice, the AI pops up the moment something they want is available. They don't wait a couple turns. Start a game and see how the turn that one of you researches Writing, they'll ask for Open Borders.

So what's happening, in effect, is that the AI is checking with the other AI every single turn to see what techs are available to trade. If you're really intent at keeping up, you'll do the same. Also, if you trade one tech to an AI, assume that they'll trade it to the other AIs unless you beat them to it -- so when you're the first to get a highly desireable tech, trade it to everyone, not just your friends. It might hurt knowing that you just gave your sworn enemy a copy of Philosophy for an old Compass, but better you get that Compass than someone else.

Screw that. In my latest game I am not joking...Brennus just jumped ahead by 4 techs. All of a sudden too. The only way he could do this is if every AI worked on a seperate tech and then traded with him. I'm calling BS on this. I mean, why should I bother to try diplomacy at all if the AI can magically pull ahead like that? Its not like its a minor lead either. I watched Brennus' score go from more than 150 pts behind mine to more than 200 over mine within the space of 6 turns.

Seriously, tell me how that is possible in any fair way?

 

[LibertyGeis]

Well, in my experience Brennus has kinda been the neo-Mansa. Unless he really hates them he'll trade just about anything with anybody, and tends to be well-liked all around because of it.

I think there's a method using the Chipotle cheat code that shows you every AI-to-AI trade, if you wanted to delve deeper, but I don't know exactly how that code works. I just remember seeing a thread kinda similar to this one, where a poster running Chipotle was outraged to see the AI constantly accepting those preposterous how-bout-30-gold-for-your-latest-tech trades that they're so fond of popping up with.

 

[occam]

If someone ever said the single player is not singled out, you should check the fine print. There are many modifiers to diplomacy that DO affect just the single player:

1. The AIs never present help requests or demands amongst themselves (that I have been able to detect)... this removes a natural ceiling on positive relations among AIs that the single player must suffer.

2. The AIs are naturally more friendly towards one another. Azaris posted a great graphic showing this:

- 1 = pleased among AIs, +5 = cautious with a human
so AIs rarely see the "We just don't like you enough"

3. I have never understood fully how the AI values techs, but it seems that as difficulty levels go higher, the AI values its techs more and your techs less -- roughly in proportion to the relative beaker cost deltas from the difficulty level. If this pet theory is correct, then the AIs will be on level valuation while yours is tilted.

========

Totally separate from any diplomatic imbalances, please remember that if a tech is mostly researched, the AIs are more willing to trade it. So, if several nations are researching Rifling, once someone discovers it all the others may toss in a much cheaper tech to finish it off. Which results in a natural, non-suspicious burst of several nations adding several techs at once.

- O

 

[KMadCandy]

2. The AIs are naturally more friendly towards one another. Azaris posted a great graphic showing this:

- 1 = pleased among AIs, +5 = cautious with a human
so AIs rarely see the "We just don't like you enough"

certain leaders are naturally more friendly towards one another. the agressive AIs have an invisible +2 "warmonger respect" modifier, the builders have a 0, the human of course has 0.

monty and ragnar start out with (at least)* +4 you can't see. but not gandhi and monty. so yes there is stuff behind the scenes, but it's not always as bad as your example.

more info on that stuff here and here for the curious.

* i say (at least) because there's also a random PeaceWeight modifier that i don't understand completely. that's the only part of AI attitudes that has any random factor.

 

[Spitefire]

I pointed out Alpha Centari because i remeber one game where i turned everything to automatic and the only thing i did was diplomacy and hit end turn when needed and as far as i could tell the game didnt do a bad job of handleing the faction i used so it seems a little odd to me that the AI is so horridly incompetent that it needs such bonuses, i just wonder how lazy/rushed thay got with this game.

 

[dante alighieri]

If someone ever said the single player is not singled out, you should check the fine print. There are many modifiers to diplomacy that DO affect just the single player:

1. The AIs never present help requests or demands amongst themselves (that I have been able to detect)... this removes a natural ceiling on positive relations among AIs that the single player must suffer.

2. The AIs are naturally more friendly towards one another. Azaris posted a great graphic showing this:

- 1 = pleased among AIs, +5 = cautious with a human
so AIs rarely see the "We just don't like you enough"

3. I have never understood fully how the AI values techs, but it seems that as difficulty levels go higher, the AI values its techs more and your techs less -- roughly in proportion to the relative beaker cost deltas from the difficulty level. If this pet theory is correct, then the AIs will be on level valuation while yours is tilted.

========

Totally separate from any diplomatic imbalances, please remember that if a tech is mostly researched, the AIs are more willing to trade it. So, if several nations are researching Rifling, once someone discovers it all the others may toss in a much cheaper tech to finish it off. Which results in a natural, non-suspicious burst of several nations adding several techs at once.

- O

Well, it seems that the AI is perfectly willing to trade these techs amongst itself but not with me, even though diplomatically I've done nothing to require its ire.

 

[Chemtech]

I've thought a lot about this as well - it really used to bother me. As the human in this game we do have one advantage tho - its the ability to react completely with freedom in any circumstance. The AI is, afterall, just a series of if/then checks - we can do anything we want. One of my favorite "get even" techniques is to demand a tech from someone I'm about to war on - and then still go to war even if they give it up - often on the same turn. The AI lacks this type of "insanity" if you will - look for other opportunities to take advantage of situations like this.

 

[Morgawr]

Well, it seems that the AI is perfectly willing to trade these techs amongst itself but not with me, even though diplomatically I've done nothing to require its ire.

Check this out. Given an AI's peaceweight value you can see if the AI will like you more or less than another AI player. Most simply put (ignoring other modifiers), the AI is neutral to those that are 4 points away and likes them more if they're closer than 4 and less vice versa. Being the human player, you are always 4 points away from each AI so you don't get a positive or negative value. So, in the case of Montezuma for example, the AI will roughly treat you in the same category as Julius Caesar or Saladin. My point is, it is not as unfair as you think because although Montezuma likes Ragnar a lot more than it likes you, it also hates all those AI's to the right of Saladin MORE than it hates you. (the human) So it balances out at the end.

 

[Dan Quale]

They need the bonuses, honestly. Ai is terrible at war lets face it. For example the power graph may say an Ai has 2x the power of the human, so he gets cocky and demands tribute, then declares war when it is refused. 20 turns later there is a 0 next to that Ai's poor name, and the human has lost a handful of units in the process.
Sure they cheat, but turn off tech trading some game and it wont even be fun as your calvalry squash their archers.

 

[CliftonBazaar]

Turn on 'agressive AI' and let them fight each other (just hide on another island first!).

 

[Buffbot]

this is why i ply without tech trading

No tech trading is paramount for me. I seriously will not play ANY game that it isn't turned on, single or multiplayer. Until I can dominate Deity level, it'll stay off.

Since I started relying on myself for tech development, I have learned much more on how to design a strategy based on the leader I get. Random leaders WILL improve your game. Learning every leaders strengths also helps to know what to expect from a AI running that leader.