How fast can you Found & Enhance a Religion in the current version? 4/18/20

[VampireSeraphin]

The discussion of balancing Tutulery Gods got me wondering, when you're founding, how fast is FAST.

I decided to give it a go with Spain, and took the Pantheon I think might be fastest, Nature. Starting by making a few moves (3-4) to get Mt. Kailash in the capital, I was able to found by turn 50, and enhance by turn 81, with +53f/turn. By turn 84, equivalent to the TG testing I was doing, I was up to 59f/turn.

This test was on Standard Speed, Huge Frontier Map.

For a second try I took Spain and Mountains again, this time on a Huge Highlands Map, std speed. I managed to find Mt. Kailash again, about 15 tiles away from my capital and found a holy city there. I was not able to found as fast, only hitting T59, but I was exactly the same on enhancing, getting my second prophet on T81 thanks to taking Cooperation. This time I was making +70f/turn on T81, and +76f/turn by T84, having taken Mendicancy and Veneration for maximum faith.

In both cases I was playing with Vox+Community events+Unique City states and got the "Dedicate monuments to our gods" event. Also in both games I took a shot at building Stonehenge and missed.

Has anyone managed to found & enhance any faster with just the 3 basic mods listed? What turn did you found? Enhance? What Faith/turn were you making when you enhanced? I'm interested in ball-parking what fast and slow religions look like on standard speed.

 

[JamesNinelives]

The discussion of balancing Tutulery Gods got me wondering, when you're founding, how fast is FAST.

I decided to give it a go with Spain, and took the Pantheon I think might be fastest, Nature. Starting by making a few moves (3-4) to get Mt. Kailash in the capital, I was able to found by turn 50, and enhance by turn 81, with +53f/turn. By turn 84, equivalent to the TG testing I was doing, I was up to 59f/turn.

This test was on Standard Speed, Huge Frontier Map.

For a second try I took Spain and Mountains again, this time on a Huge Highlands Map, std speed. I managed to find Mt. Kailash again, about 15 tiles away from my capital and found a holy city there. I was not able to found as fast, only hitting T59, but I was exactly the same on enhancing, getting my second prophet on T81 thanks to taking Cooperation. This time I was making +70f/turn on T81, and +76f/turn by T84, having taken Mendicancy and Veneration for maximum faith.

In both cases I was playing with Vox+Community events+Unique City states and got the "Dedicate monuments to our gods" event. Also in both games I took a shot at building Stonehenge and missed.

Has anyone managed to found & enhance any faster with just the 3 basic mods listed? What turn did you found? Enhance? What Faith/turn were you making when you enhanced? I'm interested in ball-parking what fast and slow religions look like on standard speed.View attachment 552719 View attachment 552719 View attachment 552720

I play on Epic Speed, Huge map, similar settings otherwise. I think the earlier I've founded on Epic Speed is around turn 90, but that was some time ago and on a previous beta. Generally speaking I consider anything under Turn 125 to be fast on my settings. Below turn 100 I've only seen happen with civs like India, the Maya etc. That said I've never tried optimising civ/map/pantheon for speed founding. I'm interested in hearing people's experiences!

 

[Drakle]

I've found one of the fastest ways to Found, if not the fastest is as Aztecs with God of War. I've founded, reformed and enhanced in that order before any other civ founded. Now that was on 6 so other civs likely would have founded earlier (and I didn't really have many faith focused civs to compete with, bar the Maya who I weakened with a early war. Who were smart, and founded, and then enhanced a few turns later with their free great Person). But it would still essential be a lock for a religion even on higher difficulties or without raging barbarians, barring really bad luck. I didn't maximise faith in that game as well.

The Aztecs I think are one of the few civs who could get the era boost founder belief up and running in a few cities in time for entering the Classical era, since most other civs can only found once they have already entered the Classical. I didn't grab that one, but a early founding like that also makes others like the bonus per policy more valuable (or modded ones like per tech).

In terms of other civs
India gets cheaper founding, and a immediate Pantheon. But it solely has to rely on faith from it.
Spain gets some faith per city but not a huge amount. Also can hit population targets for pantheons quicker
Maya can't use their free great person to found, thought they may be the fastest to enhance, with the right timing. Tile improvement for faith, but at construction.
Siam can get early city state faith
Shoshone if they hit a lot if ruins can pick some religious ones. But unless you have a heavy water map, most of those get picked clean in short order.

 

[JamesNinelives]

The Aztecs I think are one of the few civs who could get the era boost founder belief up and running in a few cities in time for entering the Classical era

I've founded with it before entering the classical era many times, but never been able to spread it to other cities before then!

Shoshone if they hit a lot if ruins can pick some religious ones. But unless you have a heavy water map, most of those get picked clean in short order.

This is my specialty haha. If you research Fishing early as Shoshone it can be quite strong!

 

[Drakle]

I've founded with it before entering the classical era many times, but never been able to spread it to other cities before then!

Epic and Raging Barbarians likely help things. Of course, it wasn't a focus since I was using the Golden Age founder instead. I think I used one missionary, and it might have actually been after the classic era. I just remember founding before moving to Classical.

 

[Stalker0]

I also agree Aztec God of War rush is probably the fastest way I have founded and enhanced, that would be my benchmark for ultra fast faith.

 

[VampireSeraphin]

So, playing India, Goddess of Nature+Uluru,+ about 6 mountains, I got it down to a mere 43 rounds to found.

Which, had the unexpected side effect of being so fast, that I only had 3 cities with my pantheon in them built, and no way to get religion in any new cities for a while because India cannot train missionaries. Meaning I had to try and get religion into my cities via trade route or prophet.

By turn 75 I was able to enhance, and by turn 106, I had my third prophet and was finally in position to spread some religion.



I think we can lump religion into 4 groups at this point T40-60 Very Fast, T61-75 Fast, T76-100 Average, ad T101+ Slow.

 

[JamesNinelives]

So, playing India, Goddess of Nature+Uluru,+ about 6 mountains, I got it down to a mere 43 rounds to found.

Which, had the unexpected side effect of being so fast, that I only had 3 cities with my pantheon in them built, and no way to get religion in any new cities for a while because India cannot train missionaries. Meaning I had to try and get religion into my cities via trade route or prophet.

By turn 75 I was able to enhance, and by turn 106, I had my third prophet and was finally in position to spread some religion.

View attachment 552792

I think we can lump religion into 4 groups at this point T40-60 Very Fast, T61-75 Fast, T76-100 Average, ad T101+ Slow.

How exactly do you find natural wonders in these games? You say Nature is particularly strong but it seems very conditional?

 

[VampireSeraphin]

I use Really Advanced Setup to make the games favorable for the things I want to test. In this case, I set my initial revealed space to an 8 hex radius, and my start bias to Desert+Hills+Forests. Then I re-rolled the world. Alot. I think it took 4 moves to get my settler to the starting position for India here.

I'm not trying to figure out which Religion is best all the time, but rather which is strongest under optimal circumstances. I agree Nature is situational, but under the right circumstances I think its the strongest early religion, which can lead to it dominating 2-3 civs worth of land, an almost insurmountable barrier to AI religion in the mid game. During some of my more normal games (with Civics and Reform + More Wonders for VP both enabled) I've done 100F/Turn by turn 100 before with Nature, tipping me off to how strong it could be if you start in a good mountain range with a wonder. I wanted to see how that stacks up with vanilla VP.

In general I found around turn 80 - 85, and the AIs around me from 75-105 or so. I wanted to know whether these numbers were fast or slow compared to a dedicated religion rush. 75 - 85 seems to be the sweet spot where you have enough cities founded that you don't hamstring yourself like I did with India in the above post, unless you're Spain in which case going even earlier if you can is better since new cities start with your religion.

Going in blind, or if you are last to pick, I actually like Wisdom or Beauty Pantheons. The early extra GPP can be very helpful, and you don't need to work tiles to get the faith for these, allowing you to settle aggressively. I tend to try and choose things not tied to terrain since I know I'm going to start going domination victory in the mid-game with Inquisitors in tow, and I want to be able to scale well regardless of what the AI settled.

 

[Gazebo]

I use Really Advanced Setup to make the games favorable for the things I want to test. In this case, I set my initial revealed space to an 8 hex radius, and my start bias to Desert+Hills+Forests. Then I re-rolled the world. Alot. I think it took 4 moves to get my settler to the starting position for India here.

I'm not trying to figure out which Religion is best all the time, but rather which is strongest under optimal circumstances. I agree Nature is situational, but under the right circumstances I think its the strongest early religion, which can lead to it dominating 2-3 civs worth of land, an almost insurmountable barrier to AI religion in the mid game. During some of my more normal games (with Civics and Reform + More Wonders for VP both enabled) I've done 100F/Turn by turn 100 before with Nature, tipping me off to how strong it could be if you start in a good mountain range with a wonder. I wanted to see how that stacks up with vanilla VP.

In general I found around turn 80 - 85, and the AIs around me from 75-105 or so. I wanted to know whether these numbers were fast or slow compared to a dedicated religion rush. 75 - 85 seems to be the sweet spot where you have enough cities founded that you don't hamstring yourself like I did with India in the above post, unless you're Spain in which case going even earlier if you can is better since new cities start with your religion.

Going in blind, or if you are last to pick, I actually like Wisdom or Beauty Pantheons. The early extra GPP can be very helpful, and you don't need to work tiles to get the faith for these, allowing you to settle aggressively. I tend to try and choose things not tied to terrain since I know I'm going to start going domination victory in the mid-game with Inquisitors in tow, and I want to be able to scale well regardless of what the AI settled.

If you're manipulating the testing grounds for advantage, that spoils your results pretty badly. Best to do runs on non-optimized starts.

G

 

[VampireSeraphin]

If you wanted to know how an aircraft performs in a flat spin you wouldn't confine your examination to how its performing in stable flight.

Similarly, since I want to know how religion performs out on the edge, I need to *be* out on the edge.

 

[JamesNinelives]

If you wanted to know how an aircraft performs in a flat spin you wouldn't confine your examination to how its performing in stable flight.

Similarly, since I want to know how religion performs out on the edge, I need to *be* out on the edge.

That's totally OK! Just as long as we're all clear that is the subject we are discussing .

 

[andersw]

I've found one of the fastest ways to Found, if not the fastest is as Aztecs with God of War. I've founded, reformed and enhanced in that order before any other civ founded. Now that was on 6 so other civs likely would have founded earlier (and I didn't really have many faith focused civs to compete with, bar the Maya who I weakened with a early war. Who were smart, and founded, and then enhanced a few turns later with their free great Person). But it would still essential be a lock for a religion even on higher difficulties or without raging barbarians, barring really bad luck. I didn't maximise faith in that game as well.

The Aztecs I think are one of the few civs who could get the era boost founder belief up and running in a few cities in time for entering the Classical era, since most other civs can only found once they have already entered the Classical. I didn't grab that one, but a early founding like that also makes others like the bonus per policy more valuable (or modded ones like per tech).

In terms of other civs
India gets cheaper founding, and a immediate Pantheon. But it solely has to rely on faith from it.
Spain gets some faith per city but not a huge amount. Also can hit population targets for pantheons quicker
Maya can't use their free great person to found, thought they may be the fastest to enhance, with the right timing. Tile improvement for faith, but at construction.
Siam can get early city state faith
Shoshone if they hit a lot if ruins can pick some religious ones. But unless you have a heavy water map, most of those get picked clean in short order.

Yes, even without god of war its hard to beat Aztecs in the race for founding, with god of war Aztecs can found disgustingly fast.
Siam can also be very fast.
Spain is extremely fast to pantehon and generally one of the first to found.
Maya AI can be very fast at founding but Kuna's arent as impactful as the above.
I've also had a fast founding with renewal+natural wonder and extremely thick forests as iroqois but that was an anomaly.
Edit: austria with religious cs neighbours have potential but thats a very inconsistent strat.

 

[VampireSeraphin]

Best I've been able to do so far with India. T107 founded, spread to all my cities, and reformed. No world wonders, and no events for extra faith from monuments or shines procced this game. 95 faith/turn. I could have broken 100 faith/turn if I had thought ahead and built walls instead of barracks in some of my cities for Defender of the Faith.

I actually sat on my first prophet till my second prophet was born so I could get my pantheon in as many cities as possible. I was going to found and enhance both on turn 81, but my second prophet was born in a different city so I spread religion instead, which I think worked out better in the long run.

Religion was Nature+Elders+Culture+Veneration+Mendicancy+Defender.

 

[Stalker0]

If you're manipulating the testing grounds for advantage, that spoils your results pretty badly. Best to do runs on non-optimized starts.

G

I actually agree with Vampire, if your trying to see the best possible power of a pantheon, than you test under the most optimized conditions (assuming these conditions are possible with map scripts). This is especially true with Pantheons because you have so many options. I can always forgo using Nature until I find that great mountain start or the killer double nat wonder start.

 

[Bromar1]

If you wanted to know how an aircraft performs in a flat spin you wouldn't confine your examination to how its performing in stable flight.

Similarly, since I want to know how religion performs out on the edge, I need to *be* out on the edge.

I feel like any data you get would only be interesting if you could compare each scenario with and without natural wonders.

Also, any game where you don't found your capital within the first 2 turns is just tainted with cheese at that point. In no "fair" game would the AI or player blindly move their starting settler 4 full turns to gamble on a natural wonder

 

[JamesNinelives]

Knowing where the extremes are can be useful for other reasons. I figure if Vamp is doing this it's probably something they find interesting at least. And personally I like hearing about what people have been up to in their games even (sometimes especially) if they are doing things I normally wouldn't.

 

[Gazebo]

I actually agree with Vampire, if your trying to see the best possible power of a pantheon, than you test under the most optimized conditions (assuming these conditions are possible with map scripts). This is especially true with Pantheons because you have so many options. I can always forgo using Nature until I find that great mountain start or the killer double nat wonder start.

I don't disagree with the premise, but I do think it should be discussed as unrealistic scenarios.

G

 

[VampireSeraphin]

I don't disagree with the premise, but I do think it should be discussed as unrealistic scenarios.

G

Say "Unlikely" not unrealistic. You can start on top of a wonder even with your starting vision set to default, especially if you are willing to explore a little. It is rare though, but not so rare on the basic maps that its totally unheard of. The Spanish Gamble exists in base civ5 for a reason. For example, I think the fastest raw possible numbers would come from a Barrier Reef next to mountains start. I've only seen that one time in my thousands of hours playing Civ5, & it was years ago but I know it can happen.

This second India game isn't even that uncommon, just a good patch of mountains.

We all know roughly what the common timeframe looks like, we see it in all of our games. Now I'm trying to explore the extreme edge of the game, seeing what could hypothetically happen on those super rare occasions. I'm interested at the moment in what's possible, not whats probable.

My goal is to push the religion system to its absolute limits and find out within +/- a few turns what the absolute fastest possible religion is. Thus it would be a waste of my time to play 20 rounds of each start only to discover the map isn't viable for an extreme push, or is the same as something I've already played. Its about finding the endpoints & doing so without wasting my time on bad maps.

As far as balance, this information is useful for knowing where a new or rebalanced pantheon is pushing into "consistently too fast" territory. Because of this exploration, I know definitively, without needing a gut feeling, that getting under 80 turns for enhanced religion takes special effort and planning for the player. If I see something that is consistently at or under that, I know it needs rebalancing.

 

[VampireSeraphin]

Speak of the devil:

Spanish Barrier Reef with a meager number of mountains. Nonetheless, quite powerful. Crushed my goal of 100F/Turn by Turn 100 with a church in every city, and a missionary for my two cities that needed converting. I conquered 3 city states with dromons for a huge Hero Worship faith boost. With Defender of the Faith, I hit 113F/Turn.

Only 3 moves to get there so you could easily have found the wonder with a scout and settled there if you were incline to explore.