how high can a trade rout get
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jadelicia
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Another question: Are you sure that integer math is used for long-term trade route yield, and not rounding? I did a calculation that came up to a trade route being worth 5.5 which I put down to 5, but it said the trade route was worth 6. I checked my math, and everything is correct as far as I can tell. It looks as if the computer rounded up.
jadelicia said:
Distance and off-continent do not matter for ongoing trade routes. That is the beauty of Lafayette's Twin Cities strategy: build TWO cities close together, sort of Dallas-FtWorth, a short "key" road/rail between them, and grow them like a single SSC. Even if they lock in three trade routes, you should still have 2-3 unblocked supply commodities between them for repeated deliveries elsewhere. Make sure one of them gets Colossus and you are all set.
The highest trade routes multipliers you can get are between cities on the same continent that have the "key" rail route and SuperHighways. If they are both yours, though, there is the -50% penalty. That is why I greatly value keeping an AI city around if they start on the same continent as I. It is rare (unless your late games are prolonged) that you will get the AI to build SuperHighways and Airports in the cities you trade with, so you might as well scatter them among your own.
jadelicia said:
You can put two questions in one thread...
I'm not sure about the order in which the multipliers and penalties are applied. Samson documented in the Delivery Payments thread that the order matters, because between the steps they are rounded downward. I was guessing that the order would be the same as for Delivery Payments, but I also have found several discrepancies of +/-1 when checking calculations. Did the one you found to be off involve the "both cities yours" penalty? That is usually what I find wrong, so I suspect that step should be elsewhere in the order.
jadelicia
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I have some questions about obstacles since I'm optimizing my railroads in an area where there are lots of lakes.
The first step says to go "to the field (measured in steps) next to the destination city".
When counting how far away a square is from a city in steps, do you ignore other obstacles and take the shortest way including the squares containg oceans/lakes?
The first step says to go "to the field (measured in steps) next to the destination city".
When counting how far away a square is from a city in steps, do you ignore other obstacles and take the shortest way including the squares containg oceans/lakes?
jadelicia
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I have yet another city where the trade was higher than thought (i.e. rounded up). The source city has a trade level of 13, and the destination city has a trade level of 11. There is also the the Direct RR bonus in place. Both cities were mine. If that is calculated with rounding down always in between steps here is the answer:
13 + 11 + 4/16 = 1.75 (Round Down) = 1
1 + 100%*1 = 2 (Round Down) = 2
So according to this, I should get two trade arrows.
However, if I don't round down until the end...
13 + 11 + 4/16 = 1.75
1.75 + 100% * 1.75 = 3.5 (Round Down) = 3
So according to this, I should get 3 trade arrows.
Well, I decided to test it and set up the trade route. Sure enough, I got 3 arrows. Not 2, but 3! So, the computer must be rounding at the end and not between each step. If you have another explanation, let me know.
13 + 11 + 4/16 = 1.75 (Round Down) = 1
1 + 100%*1 = 2 (Round Down) = 2
So according to this, I should get two trade arrows.
However, if I don't round down until the end...
13 + 11 + 4/16 = 1.75
1.75 + 100% * 1.75 = 3.5 (Round Down) = 3
So according to this, I should get 3 trade arrows.
Well, I decided to test it and set up the trade route. Sure enough, I got 3 arrows. Not 2, but 3! So, the computer must be rounding at the end and not between each step. If you have another explanation, let me know.
jadelicia
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I did another trade route where the calculations did not conincide with the real data.
This time, the trade route was between a city of mine with 13 trade and a AI city with 60 trade, but minus trade routes, 29. There were no improvements in either city to affect trade and as far as I could count, they were much too far away for the direct RR bonus to count.
(13 + 29 + 4)/8 = 5.75 = 6
However, the trade route actually turned out to yield 12 arrows.
This time, the trade route was between a city of mine with 13 trade and a AI city with 60 trade, but minus trade routes, 29. There were no improvements in either city to affect trade and as far as I could count, they were much too far away for the direct RR bonus to count.
(13 + 29 + 4)/8 = 5.75 = 6
However, the trade route actually turned out to yield 12 arrows.
The standard dogma is that demand does not effect the ongoing trade route. That said, I've been looking into oddities in the formulas. Sometimes a "reciprocal" trade route is created, where one of the Demand commodities is ()ed along with the Supply commodity.
Could you post a SAV file of the second situation you list above?
Could you post a SAV file of the second situation you list above?
jadelicia
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Ok, the first one I mentioned, that was 6 instead of 5 was at Eagle Plains (the trade route with Calcutta Teresa. Unfortunetly I can't remember the one that was 3 instead of 2 because I don't think I actually made that route (just tested it and reloaded). The last one, where I got 12 instead of 5, was between Naples and Calcutta Teresa.
The Naples to Calcutta Teresa trade route seems to be doubled due to the "Phantom Roads" effect. I believe the "station city" is Jewel Fish, which also seems to satisfy the "less than 22 tiles" requirement. I should add something to my Trade Route Formula thread, as that effect is very powerful.
The other issue going on is that Calcutta Teresa has 9 trade arrows of corruption, which I attempted to work into my formula but am uncertain of exactly how it effects things. I began to believe that corruption has two components on the trade route: a component on the "base trade", and a component on the "multipliers". If the 9 is really 5 and 4, or something like that, then the "base trade" could be enough to get a +6TR before the multipliers, and the "phantom RR" would then double it but lose the second amount of corruption. That is how I believe things work, I just don't have a lot of data to pin it down exactly (or time to experiment with all the increments and conditions!).
A side note regarding your game: you REALLY need SuperHighways in your trading cities! I know they are costly and eat take a lot of upkeep, but they will MORE than pay for themselves by their effect on your trade routes! Airports would also help those cities trading with off-continent cities. Your Fundy government is losing a LOT of trade not being in Democracy, and the 50% science slider is not doing much for you. Consider setting that to 10% or less and putting the difference into Luxuries to get a pile of cities to celebrate, which will get you a LOT of extra trade arrows. You have a very large treasury - RushBuy those SuperHighways in two turns and pump out Freights instead. Are you trying to wipe out the other 3 civs, or live at peace with them? Your forces are scattered around - use them, garrison them or disband them.
The other issue going on is that Calcutta Teresa has 9 trade arrows of corruption, which I attempted to work into my formula but am uncertain of exactly how it effects things. I began to believe that corruption has two components on the trade route: a component on the "base trade", and a component on the "multipliers". If the 9 is really 5 and 4, or something like that, then the "base trade" could be enough to get a +6TR before the multipliers, and the "phantom RR" would then double it but lose the second amount of corruption. That is how I believe things work, I just don't have a lot of data to pin it down exactly (or time to experiment with all the increments and conditions!).
A side note regarding your game: you REALLY need SuperHighways in your trading cities! I know they are costly and eat take a lot of upkeep, but they will MORE than pay for themselves by their effect on your trade routes! Airports would also help those cities trading with off-continent cities. Your Fundy government is losing a LOT of trade not being in Democracy, and the 50% science slider is not doing much for you. Consider setting that to 10% or less and putting the difference into Luxuries to get a pile of cities to celebrate, which will get you a LOT of extra trade arrows. You have a very large treasury - RushBuy those SuperHighways in two turns and pump out Freights instead. Are you trying to wipe out the other 3 civs, or live at peace with them? Your forces are scattered around - use them, garrison them or disband them.
la fayette
King
ElephantU said:
I name this: *VERY GOOD ADVICE*
jadelicia
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I'm still confused on these points: I have some questions about obstacles since I'm optimizing my railroads in an area where there are lots of lakes.
The first step says to go "to the field (measured in steps) next to the destination city".
When counting how far away a square is from a city in steps, do you ignore other obstacles and take the shortest way including the squares containg oceans/lakes?
Also, what is a determination point or crossroad point?
The first step says to go "to the field (measured in steps) next to the destination city".
When counting how far away a square is from a city in steps, do you ignore other obstacles and take the shortest way including the squares containg oceans/lakes?
Also, what is a determination point or crossroad point?
I think you are getting to the point where you really should PM Zenon directly...
My general strategy for finding the "critical path" for trade routes is to build a couple Explorers as early as possible and devote them to charting out the correct routes using GoTo. A pair or two of Settlers will follow them, laying down road segments for future upgrade to rails when RR comes along. Using Warriors or Settlers with GoTo will not work correctly if there are rivers along the path, as they will prefer to move along the river rather than follow the true "critical path". The difference in trade route value is usually pretty obvious, so if you finish what you think is the route and the value stays the same you need to recheck the path. Another source of error is if there are Railed routes along the path when you start the GoTo. Even an Explorer will prefer the RR to the true path.
If all else fails, I build a "test game" in Map Editor of the terrain between the source and destination cities (just use Plains and Ocean: type of land terrain does not matter) and run an Explorer over it. Make sure to include enough of the land along each side of the route that it can test out all the possibilities. After a while of building them you begin to see the odd quirks that always come up, like starting a south-west route by going south rather than south-west.
(EDIT: looks like I'm getting repetitive in my dotage...)
My general strategy for finding the "critical path" for trade routes is to build a couple Explorers as early as possible and devote them to charting out the correct routes using GoTo. A pair or two of Settlers will follow them, laying down road segments for future upgrade to rails when RR comes along. Using Warriors or Settlers with GoTo will not work correctly if there are rivers along the path, as they will prefer to move along the river rather than follow the true "critical path". The difference in trade route value is usually pretty obvious, so if you finish what you think is the route and the value stays the same you need to recheck the path. Another source of error is if there are Railed routes along the path when you start the GoTo. Even an Explorer will prefer the RR to the true path.
If all else fails, I build a "test game" in Map Editor of the terrain between the source and destination cities (just use Plains and Ocean: type of land terrain does not matter) and run an Explorer over it. Make sure to include enough of the land along each side of the route that it can test out all the possibilities. After a while of building them you begin to see the odd quirks that always come up, like starting a south-west route by going south rather than south-west.
(EDIT: looks like I'm getting repetitive in my dotage...)
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