How important are Wonders?

[CheryChocie]

I'm a relatively new Civ 5 player, got it last Wednesday or so and I have become hooked on this game, it's amazing yet overwhelming at the same time, there's so much to take in.

I've played about 5-6 proper games so far (I've re rolled games a crap ton) and I'm only playing on King difficulty atm. I've gotten to grips with most of the games basics and some of the more advanced concepts but one thing I feel is holding me back are Wonders.

For one reason or another I am obsessed with the damn things. I want to snap up every single one for one reason or another but I feel like it's causing me to run into problems, namely that for 100 turns my city is not actually developing, it's just building wonders. I can't help myself though, I see Notre Dame with +10 Happiness even if I'm not going Faith and I see Pyramids and The Great Lighthouse and I just want all of them. While I am capable of understanding that Petra for example, is not necessary unless you are on Desert, some of them are more ambiguous. Chichen Itza for example, it just looks good for everyone and as I said before, Notre Dame is great for happiness.

So how do I discipline myself or rationalise it that I don't need every single wonder? Are there any guides or pieces of advise/general procedure for what Wonders you do and don't want? Is it viable to completely skip all wonders and focus on teching?

Any replies greatly appreciated, thanks!

 

[khdou]

Nothing wrong with building wonders, everyone should play the game the way they'll have the most fun. That being said, yes, it's very possible to skip all wonders(besides national college) and win the game (quite often in higher levels).

A good way to help control your urge to spam wonders is to decide on a victory condition and build only relevant wonders that will immediately help towards that. You should always be focusing on science no matter what victory condition, but if you are doing a science victory in particular you want to emphasize food and science. If you have to choose between a culture wonder and a hospital/public school, go for the latter

Also going up in difficulties will force you to play without wonders because it's too hard to win with them

 

[BuilderFTW]

Also going up in difficulties will force you to play without wonders because it's too hard to win with them

As Kdhou said, as you move up the difficulties, you will find that you have to prioritize certain wonders more in order to get them (some wonders may be basically impossible to get at the highest difficulties). I take it from your description you haven't missed many wonders, meaning start building a wonder only to miss it a couple (or even one) turn before you finish. After you miss a few really nice wonders, you may rethink your strategy a bit. But hey if it your strategy works for you, don't change it.

 

[Hieschen]

Most of us are wonder whores

It takes a lot of discipline to ignore them to build up infrastructure in your cities.

List of wonders and their utility should exist in some strategy thread or in the academy. Most of them are (if looked at isolated) pretty strong, the question is more what are the essentials you will really want to get and what are the wonders the AI prioritises.

Simplified you can say the higher you play in terms of difficulty, the harder it will get to get the wonders as the AI has a headstart (some say unfair advantages….)

As you move up in difficulty, you will learn that the AI loves certain wonders, so if you want them you have to give them top priority (which means beelining to the tech which opens them and build it ASAP in high production city).

Most of above is true for wonders of the ancient and renaissance. After that, you should start getting a tech advantage which is sufficient to give you a headstart in building them.

As to the quality of wonders, here are 2 threads discussing them (i do not a 100% agree, but most are pretty much spot on)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=503656

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=502876

 

[Gaizokubanou]

So how do I discipline myself or rationalise it that I don't need every single wonder? Are there any guides or pieces of advise/general procedure for what Wonders you do and don't want? Is it viable to completely skip all wonders and focus on teching?

Any replies greatly appreciated, thanks!

What I did to escape the wonder obsession was to play ICS-esque strat. It's about as anti wonder as it can get, and a couple of successful games without building much wonders (I only built wonders when I got Great Engineers) helped me see the light of what proper infrastructure can do vs wonder whoring.

 

[mrwho]

You've only been playing since last Wednesday and you're already on King? Now I just feel inadequate. Over 1000 hours logged and I'm only just considering moving up to emperor!

 

[CheryChocie]

You've only been playing since last Wednesday and you're already on King? Now I just feel inadequate. Over 1000 hours logged and I'm only just considering moving up to emperor!

Believe me i'm nothing special, I still tend to just build everything with no clear purpose and bumble along until I have a giant army or the game stagnates. I lack understanding of many of the game's features still but I'll learn in time.

Thank you for all the replies so far as well, I think I'll have to set up scenarios where I definitely don't want certain wonders and others are excellent, such as Petra/Light House etc and only go for them.

 

[Octonde]

It all depends on what you're going for and where you are. If you have a lot of desert in range, then Petra is going to turn a terrible location into an amazing one. Petra with Monaco (for the desert food forts) is extraordinary.

If you're going for cultural, then places like The Louve are critical, after all, you need a place to put all that art and artifacts. I consider the Porcelain Tower to be important for science victories, since research agreements are such a big boost; and since getting it means that someone else is denied it (races are more fun when you get to trip the other people). The Hubble Space Telescope is going to give a major leg up as well.

Some of them are good for fixing problems. Stonehenge and Hagia Sophia can do a lot to fix problems with faith generation. The Great Wall makes it a lot easier to deal with warmongers.

Remember that everything is a tradeoff of production. If you have marble nearby, then the cost is lowered. If you're in the middle of a difficult war, you probably want those extra units instead (though in that case, I suppose Terracotta Army is handy, though I've never built the BNW version).

 

[tommynt]

Its pretty simple - force yourself to build (at least) 3 additional cities prior to turn 50.
You MAY miss out on 1 wonder this way - so what ... 15 more to come

AFTER thats its very fine to wonder whore in capital - but u r having 3 cities which can build other useful things like units or caravans or whatever.

This also prepares you for higher difficulties and multiplayer

 

[duxup]

How many are you getting built?

Granted you get some cash if someone beats you to it but for the most part I don't find it worthwhile to put too much work into wonders that I'm not going to get. Usually that is what discourages me from trying to gobble up the wonders.

Also, depending on how you are playing some wonders are certainly less helpful than others. Something like Pyramids is usually not interesting to me.

 

[George Abitbol]

Petra with Monaco (for the desert food forts) is extraordinary.

Do you mean Morroco?


I just started to play on immortal level, I learnt to skip wonders But I have few questions:

-Is Great library worth it? Except for Rome or Japan (for Iron Working), I stopped to build it, and I don't see a difference
- If you start on a coastal tile, is it a good thing to rush optics, and build GLH?
- what is the best timing for NC? I usally build it at turn 100-110, whit 4 cities (with liberty)

And I'm still on G&K..

 

[Browd]

Best timing on NC is before turn 100 (before turn 80 if you can do it). Hard to do that with 4 cities (last library comes later and NC costs more hammers).

You can ignore GL (it can speed up NC by 20 turns, if you bulb Philosophy, but that's not worth the hammers and the risk of losing, and using it to bulb Iron Working made sense in vanilla, but not G&K).

If you start on a coastal tile in G&K, you still want your focus to be on land-side development. Unless its a water map, you can skip GLH; if it's a water map, maybe you go for it, but it's benefits are less compelling than other uses for hammers.

FWIW, BNW doesn't change this much. Cargo ship trade routes are more lucrative, but require more investment in triremes and galleasses to defend the trade routes, so kind of a mixed bag there. Lighthouses now give food and hammers (took the hammer from harbor, so Dido's free harbors got a nerf). The net is that Optics is more beneficial for coastal cities with a bunch of sea resources, but not for the GLH, which is still meh.

 

[Tabarnak]

Its pretty simple - force yourself to build (at least) 3 additional cities prior to turn 50.
You MAY miss out on 1 wonder this way - so what ... 15 more to come

AFTER thats its very fine to wonder whore in capital - but u r having 3 cities which can build other useful things like units or caravans or whatever.

This also prepares you for higher difficulties and multiplayer

This. Wonders can wait.

 

[Jensonian]

Its pretty simple - force yourself to build (at least) 3 additional cities prior to turn 50.
You MAY miss out on 1 wonder this way - so what ... 15 more to come

AFTER thats its very fine to wonder whore in capital - but u r having 3 cities which can build other useful things like units or caravans or whatever.

This also prepares you for higher difficulties and multiplayer

I'd like to try this. Will be hard since I'm used to beelining certain wonders, but it needs to be done

 

[vra379971]

Do you mean Morroco?


I just started to play on immortal level, I learnt to skip wonders But I have few questions:

-Is Great library worth it? Except for Rome or Japan (for Iron Working), I stopped to build it, and I don't see a difference
- If you start on a coastal tile, is it a good thing to rush optics, and build GLH?
- what is the best timing for NC? I usally build it at turn 100-110, whit 4 cities (with liberty)

And I'm still on G&K..

As I just can't help myself....don't you mean Morocco?

 

[George Abitbol]

You can ignore GL (it can speed up NC by 20 turns, if you bulb Philosophy, but that's not worth the hammers and the risk of losing, and using it to bulb Iron Working made sense in vanilla, but not G&K).

Thanks for your tips! I my last game (immortal), GL was complete by somebody else by turn 37... In cannot even imagine on Deity...
The only wonders I still build are Pyramids, they are a wonder(!)ful tool for quick expansion, and Notre-Dame for happiness.

 

[Mighty Spearman]

Most could be safely skipped or ignored. Unless you're going for a cultural victory. I'd find it difficult to avoid them just because so many have slots for a theming bonus.