How many European Civilizations!?!

[Nyvin]

The name change from Britain to the UK was more or less just a formality by 1707. The Welsh, the Irish, and the Scots had pretty much been subsumed by that point. I believe at this point in time, the UK was in the middle of a cold war with France over colonial holdings in Asia and the Americas, both nations having already eclipsed the Spanish in terms of overall power and wealth. The UK had its ups and downs, but it did build a large enough oceanic empire to boast that the sun never set on it. Not something either the Germans or the Japanese could lay claim to.

Actually if you inclue the pacific islands and african colonies the sun never really set on the German empire either, or the Russian empire or the French Empire or the Dutch empire or the Portugese Empire or the Spainish Empire or basically any empire that had at least one colony on each quarter of the hemisphere.

The welsh may have been subdued but it the Scottish were primarily interested in a union, not a subduction. The Irish never truly did accept English rule and still don't today.

In the year 1700 the economy of France was twice that of England and the Dutch were still in their hayday of economic power. The spainish weren't a superpower anymore, but they still were certainly a world power, still having the largest empire in the world.

 

[doronron]

Actually if you inclue the pacific islands and african colonies the sun never really set on the German empire either, or the Russian empire or the French Empire or the Dutch empire or the Portugese Empire or the Spainish Empire or basically any empire that had at least one colony on each quarter of the hemisphere.

The welsh may have been subdued but it the Scottish were primarily interested in a union, not a subduction. The Irish never truly did accept English rule and still don't today.

In the year 1700 the economy of France was twice that of England and the Dutch were still in their hayday of economic power. The spainish weren't a superpower anymore, but they still were certainly a world power, still having the largest empire in the world.

If I recall, most of Germany's colonies were gifts or collateral given to them by the British after they were acquired from the Dutch, Portugese, Spanish, and French.

Regardless of the unrest the Brits dealt with involving the Welsh, Scots, and Irish, the Brits still owned the land, still claimed it as theirs, along with the population as servants for the British colonists.

The point, though, is that your blanket dismissal of the British on any grounds is simply ludicrous. You cannot deny the fact that they were a world superpower for over a hundred years (post French+Indian War -> WWI). Only Napoleonic France, Spain during the Age of Discovery, Soviet Russia, and modern United States can make that claim. Possibly Nazi Germany could as well, for about six to nine months in the 1941-1942 time period.

 

[Atrebates]

France, Spain, USSR and the US were/have been superpowers for less than 100 years though. Oh, you didn't mean the 100 years bit when you said 'claim the same'; never mind.

1700 France's economy double England's then Britain in 1707?Are you sure? France didn't have double the population or any particular mineral wealth over Britain (can't think colony-wise) Is there some massive one off like the Louisiana purchase in 1700 (yeah, yeah not till 1803 I know)?

 

[sela1s1son]

Just wait and see. There'll be gigantic mods released eventually (as AFAIK there is no Civ # limit in Civ IV) that will have anywhere from 18 to as many as 100+ civs. Granted, most mods adding civs will tend towards the middle of that range, you will see mods in the same tradtion as DyP add so many civs, faiths, etc that X number of this or Y number of that will quickly become illrelevent. No two people will agree on everything, nor will it be perfect, or utterly rooted in realism. Some realism is sacraficed for fun and playability. Even if we could include (and the computers could handle w/ or w/o in game # limits) 100+ civs, we could find important/noteable/cool/fun civs left out. So if you feel like adding or removing civs, do so and make a mod... or download a mod that's closer to what you want. Modding is a good part of what makes it fun (as you invest time in creating things for it) and replayable.

If someone wanted to they could argue that any one civilization (that is in the game) should be excluded and a different civ to be included in its place OR VICE VERSA. It's more a matter of personal taste, so they have to meet a generalized (for better or worse) taste of thier fanbase.

IT'S JUST A GAME HAVE FUN, as that's the important thing.

 

[Crayton]

4 or less: 11
5 to 6: 31
7 to 8: 26
9 or more: 32

100 votes. Wow! I wish I could alter the poll to shift the choices +1 to get a more representive curve. Right now it is hard to tell if 9 or more is mostly people who want 9 or 18. Choices: 5 or less, 6 to 7, 8 to 9, 10 or more. Oh well, bummer.

 

[Nyvin]

France, Spain, USSR and the US were/have been superpowers for less than 100 years though. Oh, you didn't mean the 100 years bit when you said 'claim the same'; never mind.

1700 France's economy double England's then Britain in 1707?Are you sure? France didn't have double the population or any particular mineral wealth over Britain (can't think colony-wise) Is there some massive one off like the Louisiana purchase in 1700 (yeah, yeah not till 1803 I know)?

Spain was a superpower more then 100 years, so was portugal and Russia. France has at least been a continental power for about 500 or more years.

In 1700 France had lots more then 'double' England's population, it had about a full five times it's population! (about 5-6 million in England and about 28-30 million in France) France had always been Western Europe's most populous nation ever since the fall of Rome. It also had 'much' more mineral wealth then England also, England is generally refered to as a 'have-not' country, even today.

The fact that France 'only' had about double in 1700 is kind of sad actually, it does show the high level that England's per capita was at, though this was kind of flawed since most of the population lived as peasents anyway. But when you consider 'overall wealth' as something like GDP, France had always been the bigger nation. Until after sometime around 1821 anyway.

And the treaty of union in 1707 would give 'britain' a boost in it's economy, but nothing major.

 

[bloodofages]

They should all more European nations in the game.
Germany, Austria, Serbia, England, Greece, Rome, Romania, Bulgaria, France, Netherlands just cause the Dutch are the coolest in the world, Spain,Russia, Czechs, Denmark, Norway, and Finland.
Asian Nations.
Japan, China, Vietnam, Thailand.
Mid east,
Persia, Arabia, Hittes, Assyrians.

 

[Crayton]

Not to disagree, but: Egypt, India?

The poll states "out of 18 civilizations" while the list you gave has 24. The other 6 can represent an expansion but what did you vote for?

 

[Tunch Khan]

My choice of 18 initial civs would be distributed as follows:

European;
Greece
Rome
Germany
England
France
Spain

Eurasian;
Russia
Turkey

Middle Eastern;
Persia
Arabia
Babylonia

African;
Egypt
Abyssinia

Asian;
China
India
Siam

Americas;
Aztecs
Sioux

The reason i picked the above civilizations are based on their impact on world history in general as well as fairness to all regions bearing in mind the distirbution of world population through different chronological periods.

Babylon, Egypt, India and China are the cradles of civilization where mankind first settled down and built their villages.

Greece, Persia and Rome were the next step in humanity as they built cities and empires where civilization advanced.

Germany, Spain, England, France, Turkey and Russia were undoubtedly all superpowers at one point in history, all of them having vast, multi-ethnic, multi-religious empires that stood the test of history for hundreds of years. They ruled simultaneously over most of the known world.

Arabia, under the banner of Islam dominated half of the ancient world and threatened Christian existence for hundreds of years being the first teocratical empire in the world in which they replaced tribalism with the notion of religious brotherhood. During the darkest hours of Europe, Bagdad was the capital of enlightenment, freedom and prosperity with Islam entering it's Golden Age.

Abyssinia is not only on the list to represent black Africa, but i believe they are also a much better candiate than Zulu's, whose only major achievement known in popular culture was to win a single skirmish against a British expedition. Abyssinia, which is a more historically accurate name for Ethiopia, having the chance to interact with other civilizations did indeed develop a unique substantial civilization which was able to preserve herself.

Siam was meant to represent all of south-east Asia and I believe, not only because of their amazing culture, but also for their interaction with China, India, Ottomans and Europeans throughout the ages, are a better candidate than Japanese, as Japan has only been open to the world for the last two hundred years. Japan, of course deserves a distinct place in the history of civilization, however, given the restraint of 18 civilization cap, it would be fair to select Siam due to her culture being far more different than Chinese when compared to Japan and also the human populations they ought to represent.

Aztecs are in the list for having the strongest empire in the known world before the conquests. Incas would also be a good selection if we weren't limited, but instead i selected Sioux to at least represent North American people. It could as well be any other native American tribe here as I am only trying to be politically correct, because I don't think they had achieved any progress throughout history that we would consider in the top 18 civilizations. I would personally enjoy the Vikings more and have the natives as barbarian villages.

 

[bloodofages]

Not to disagree, but: Egypt, India?

The poll states "out of 18 civilizations" while the list you gave has 24. The other 6 can represent an expansion but what did you vote for?

I voted for 9 or more. I noticed later one that i forgot to include India and Egypt since those are two of my favorite non european nations, and ones that i play often as. Really aslong as they leave, the Greeks,Rome, Egypt, and India in it i will be happy. I was saying which nations that i think would be cool to have in it.

 

[Crayton]

Ya, those are core. Don't forget China... and Babylon.

 

[bloodofages]

Ya, those are core. Don't forget China... and Babylon.

I put in China, but forgot Babylon. Thats the problems, there is so many cool civs from many diffreant places in the world and through time its will be very hard to put all of themin the game. The game would just be too big.Might be over 1,000 or more civs! I couldn't make the choice on what to put in or to leave out. I would be like PUT THAT ONE IN! ALSO THAT ONE! ONE MORE! And so on and so on.

 

[Crayton]

Ya, It's all a conspiracy. They are practically forcing us to buy the expansions. Maybe the users (us) will find a way to pirate the Civ4 program enough to commondere the entire Civilization series!

 

[Atrebates]

Spain was a superpower more then 100 years, so was portugal and Russia. France has at least been a continental power for about 500 or more years.

In 1700 France had lots more then 'double' England's population, it had about a full five times it's population! (about 5-6 million in England and about 28-30 million in France) France had always been Western Europe's most populous nation ever since the fall of Rome. It also had 'much' more mineral wealth then England also, England is generally refered to as a 'have-not' country, even today.

The fact that France 'only' had about double in 1700 is kind of sad actually, it does show the high level that England's per capita was at, though this was kind of flawed since most of the population lived as peasents anyway. But when you consider 'overall wealth' as something like GDP, France had always been the bigger nation. Until after sometime around 1821 anyway.

And the treaty of union in 1707 would give 'britain' a boost in it's economy, but nothing major.

I am suprised, can't think what France's greater mineral wealth is composed of (Alscace-Lorraine and the Saarland are rich in coal + iron but England had lots of that, and they switched out of french control periodically). Anyway England got lots of cash from the wool trade, that was very lucrative. If the other stats work that would explain things.