[GS] How many settlers to build before Ancestral Hall?

[garmeth]

Hey all, I'm trying to get better at peaceful science victories and haven't played civ 6 since vanilla and couldn't find many/any good GS videos of fast peaceful science.

The ancestral hall bonus of a free builder + extra production is so juicy but it takes a while to get online. What is the standard procedure for settling in relation to this building?

 

[Tabarnak]

Personnally i don't build it before having around 5 cities if enough place for another 3+ cities major expansion. Preferably timed with feudalism.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Just to add to this question and strategy...
I would like @Victoria or other players to explain the 10 Population Strategy.
I was reading a post that claimed you can get around 200 spt by turn 100.
That is to say if everything breaks right with city states and what not.
How many cities should you try to get to 10 pop asap??
What are the ways to go about it and what do you have to sacrifice to make it work?
Do you rush Education and Universities??

I would think that getting up x amount of cities at 10 pop goes along the same lines as AH ideas?

Personally I have been trying to get out more settlers with AH and Feudalism for 5 to 7 charged builders but nothing goes as fast as I would like it by turn 100. I was building it in the Capital but I read that it is usually better to build it in another city? However I still find it tough to get more than 8 to 12 cities by turn 100.

Currently I am in a game with Gorgo with massive land or free space. City States are a plenty and they block the AI from my land with mountains and rough terrain. I haven't made it work as well as I can but I would like to read more strategy about what to do. I find it hard to grow on this map as it has many plains hills all over the place. Not much room for Farms let alone Triangle Farms... would you consider this a problem?

 

[Victoria]

I would like @Victoria or other players to explain the 10 Population Strategy.
I was reading a post that claimed you can get around 200 spt by turn 100.

Best I have got is 260, 200 is not super unusual but not normal but by T120 you should be well above that. That’s the general idea to skyrocket science around that time.
The 10 pop strategy is due to the enlightenment card that gives each city 50% extra science for having a campus with +3 adjacency or better and an additional +50% per city if it has a population of 10. The first is fairly easy is most cities but the second requires scraping what you can up to help.

Look. The general strategy listed in the chop example in my signature is what is is all about and the key. In its simplest form...
Settlers or cities by conquest ASAP. Plan that +3 campus placement where you can and that pop 10 but do not rush in the first 70 or so turns to build science, just get cities, as many as possible and get to Feudalism.... then chop chop choppity chop and let’s say you have 15 cities
15 cities with a +3 campus and a +4 library from 2 science CS is 180 science without the population, tiles or universities. And after you get to rationalism and universities... over 500 science, and when you get to the space station wowser... nearer 2k science.
The T100 is just a point in time. The strategy is what makes it sound, not the time it happens.

So the real thing is ancestral hall gives a builder. The 50% is to compensate for not building builders while building ancestral hall. Which way is better? ... war because settlers get damn expensive but a really good peaceful player can churn them out with chops once AH is there.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

@Victoria

Thanks for the reply and I really do appreciate you taking the time to explain this again and again.
I seem to keep hard building too many districts.
I just re-read your chop link/post.
I am going to focus on this today and for my games in the future.
Warmonger if close neighbors and pillage.
Place Districts and Chop them in with Feudalism Builders.
Gonna really try not to fall into the same trap as I always do.
Focus on getting out Settlers and Army.
Push Culture as hard as possible for the Early Game and turn it into Science around turn 80 to 100.
Thanks Again!

 

[Victoria]

Place Districts and Chop them in with Feudalism Builders.

yes, it’s the hard building that is the hardest to stop, also getting too many builders too early.
... and a little culture helps also.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I played 3 games so far.
2 were complete disasters to make this work.
The third was better and I should get a Domination Victory around 200-220 but still not getting massive beakers.

You would think you would be able to see how this is done on streams or youtube since it is normal.
However, even many of those players are playing New Age World and Wet but still aren't pulling 200 spt at turn 100.
I just have to face the fact that I can't personally do it but I sure would like to watch people do it.
I can't win a Domination at turn 130 either so I realize I just suck.

I am pretty sure my major problem is understanding how to abuse overflow.
Not only Production Overflow but Science and Culture as well.

 

[Victoria]

I am pretty sure my major problem is understanding how to abuse overflow.

200 spt or 130 Dom you need a good map and civ for. They are not normal.
It’s a dodgy game anyway with gold abuse and the pantheon escape bug amongst others.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

200 spt or 130 Dom you need a good map and civ for. They are not normal.
It’s a dodgy game anyway with gold abuse and the pantheon escape bug amongst others.

I get it but you are saying by turn 120 you should be above and beyond and skyrocketing.
I understand the game has many bugs or abuses however, I also realize many players can consistently win or get certain benchmarks each and every game on a standard / standard set up. I remember you posting that you got to 15 pop the same time you got to the moon landing and it cost you plenty of overflow which added about 40 turns on your game. Personally I don't want use bugs like the pantheon bug but I don't mind abusing chops or overflow. These are actually two mechanics that I don't fully understand or optimally use which is why I notice my games are usually 100 turns longer. Another issue is my city placement decisions are not optimal. Many times I run into a barb or have to settle somewhere I didn't want to because I lost the race to the city spot or play too fast.

I am having fun working on it though and learning.
Recently I played a game and lost to a 205 Deity AI Religious Victory because I never checked or wasn't watching.
Egg on my face but it made me aware that it can happen so I now check and stopped being so peaceful.
I guess my main focus is just getting better and I believe you and this forum constantly helps me learn.
If it wasn't for this forum I wouldn't know you could hold back founding your religion till you got a bunch of HS's in place.
Which instantly converts each city when founded.
Another thing you taught me a few days ago @Victoria was to build 3 archers, warriors and chariots.
This gives you 9 units for the inspiration and you upgrade all 3 to get 3 other boosts.
It also helps defend your land or attack your neighbors.
I prioritize this now in all my games although I do find that faith buying some of these later units can work too.
The point is that changed my build orders around to actually improve my early game.

As usual... thanks for the help and replies!
(I suppose just finding an early relic and selling it to the AI will completely change games when compared?)

 

[Fluphen Azine]

So 3 to 5 Settlers before AH?
How many Builders do you guys build at Feudalism??
I was reading that LL gets out a Builder ever couple of turns?
I find myself still struggling with the Magnus/Builder Tour.
I tend to click on Com Hub or Campus and concentrate on a War usually.
Should I be building builders in every city all at the same time?
Is it more important to Faith Buy Settlers over Builders?
Are you guys actually buying the tiles to chop?
I tend to find that my chops are in the outer rings.
I get confused what to spend my gold on lol.
Are Granaries and Water Mills a bad investment?
I find it very difficult to get everything synergized.
Do you guys wait for Magnus to chop districts in ever city or do you just chop them in asap after Feudalism.

I had this game with Japan where I had a ton of space... room for 20+ cities.
I tried to use every abuse that I know of just to see how fast I could get things going.
It didn't work out so great... I was at 45spt by turn 100 and by turn 123 I was at about 150spt.
I don't usually get into Wonders but I did get Pyramids and Petra in the capital since it had 6 desert hills with two flat desert tiles.
No Science CS meets or they were gobbled up far away.
I was trying to focus on Campus, Com Hub and Theater Squares.
I guess with that much land and time I should of got up Holy Sites/Religion and Theaters first since the discount.

 

[Victoria]

I find it very difficult to get everything synergized.

Indeed, the finer point. Best advice I have seen is go slower... but I struggle with that.

 

[garmeth]

So 3 to 5 Settlers before AH?
How many Builders do you guys build at Feudalism??
I was reading that LL gets out a Builder ever couple of turns?
I find myself still struggling with the Magnus/Builder Tour.
I tend to click on Com Hub or Campus and concentrate on a War usually.
Should I be building builders in every city all at the same time?
Is it more important to Faith Buy Settlers over Builders?
Are you guys actually buying the tiles to chop?
I tend to find that my chops are in the outer rings.
I get confused what to spend my gold on lol.
Are Granaries and Water Mills a bad investment?
I find it very difficult to get everything synergized.
Do you guys wait for Magnus to chop districts in ever city or do you just chop them in asap after Feudalism.

I had this game with Japan where I had a ton of space... room for 20+ cities.
I tried to use every abuse that I know of just to see how fast I could get things going.
It didn't work out so great... I was at 45spt by turn 100 and by turn 123 I was at about 150spt.
I don't usually get into Wonders but I did get Pyramids and Petra in the capital since it had 6 desert hills with two flat desert tiles.
No Science CS meets or they were gobbled up far away.
I was trying to focus on Campus, Com Hub and Theater Squares.
I guess with that much land and time I should of got up Holy Sites/Religion and Theaters first since the discount.

Yea I struggle hard with chopping especially with fluidly using Magnus. I can never get that high spt by turn 100 (although it seems you need great CS luck at the very least. Each science CS is worth a huge amount of science at ~10 cities).

Indeed, the finer point. Best advice I have seen is go slower... but I struggle with that.

This is tangential, but what civs are the best for peaceful fast science victories? I've been using Pericles but I want to try some other strong ones.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

@garmeth

Turns out that those Monumental Golden Ages are a huge factor as I am sure most players know or already talked about.
It seems that pillaging for faith and using that faith to buy more builders/settlers is completely different compared to hard building everything or chopping it in. Peaceful Players seem to do this as well with Religion but Warmongering seems much easier for me.
I still have a long way to go and learn and once the empire starts to grow I find myself getting overwhelmed with all the choices.

I guess the mantra for speed or faster victory is to just chop and keep chopping.
I still am trying to find balance on building Farms or Mines or Lumber Mills or Chopping.
Not exactly sure which one is better over the other just yet but it is starting to be clear that the more builders the better.

 

[Victoria]

but what civs are the best for peaceful fast science victories?

If you have a good map then Pericles, Qin, John, Mali, Korea. Pericles is damn fine for SV.
I have become hooked on Kupe, deity Terra map peaceful SV’s and played many of late. It’s a completely non aggressive different game. Certainly sub 200 SV. Just a question of the right map and tactics as to how low you can go.

 

[garmeth]

If you have a good map then Pericles, Qin, John, Mali, Korea. Pericles is damn fine for SV.
I have become hooked on Kupe, deity Terra map peaceful SV’s and played many of late. It’s a completely non aggressive different game. Certainly sub 200 SV. Just a question of the right map and tactics as to how low you can go.

I just tried a map with John and I severely underestimated his strength. You can get some ridiculous science output for basically no good reason due to tile appeal. Well timed liberations and the ability to settle coastal cities with impunity are also very powerful.

I understand all of the other civs that you listed except for Mali. On paper they seem bad to me, am I missing something?


Also, how does one go about the last ~50 turns now? Before in vanilla you could save a ton of gold and basically buy all of the GS with Big Ben. Now that they increased the cost of patronage substantially, how does one speed up the end of the game? The exoplanet expedition in particular is gruesome. Am I still supposed to try to get a space project boosting GS or is it all just more chops?

 

[Victoria]

On paper they seem bad to me,

They take a while to get going but them can pretty much buy anything.

The last 50 turns, once you launch your moon landing and get to ISS, power through the tech to mars and beyond. Exoplanet part is not gruesome, just get projects going to speed it up with lasers. The gruesome part to me is wetween the moon and Mars.

Once you have the basic paths right, speeding it all up is mainly eurekas.