How much of a lawyer is Junil?

[Immaculate]

Could people please provide their opinions regarding this argument? I would be particularly interested in hearing the opinion of our resident sages.
Note that the players/moderator are discussing a fantasy world based on FFH but not exactly like FFH.
Please don’t post in this thread if you are in any way related to the FFH NES II game (have been or currently are a player).

Player one
I have questions about treaties and how they work, so I thought they deserved their own thread:
The moderator said that the spirit of the treaty is enforced rather than the letter. This makes it very subjective. Treaties are already murky here and there. If gods acted as mechanical lawyers respecting the treaties to the letter, it would already be hard to know whether or not a treaty has been broken in certain cases, but with the subjective clause, it is even less clear to me.
This leads me to ask the following questions:
Is it possible for people/priests to pray the gods to
1) -know whether the treaties would be broken by acting or not acting?
2) -get a warning from the gods in case they are "not on the right path"?
3) -influence a god into thinking a treaty has in fact been broken (or not)?

The moderator
1) i guess so
2) i guess so
3) probably not- unless you are truly beloved of their god

Player two
I really dislike them enforcing the ''spirit'' of the treaty, particularly Junil who is anal about rules and laws, he in particular should be interested in the letter of the treaties as opposed to the spirit.

The Moderator
To the first comment: junil has a code and is more interested in maintaining his code... his code is perfect and there is no difference between the intention and the language but the mere humans cannot hope to copy it and when there is a difference between the intention and the wording the intention wins out- only dagha is a 'letter of a law' type god (in my eyes)...
in modern times laws are more prevalent but remember that there is no such thing as a 'code of laws' researched yet on erebus so we have to muddle along as best as we can (and junil (and others) will enforce the spirit of the treaty)...

Also, i know we disagree on this (since we brought it up before) but then i think we have a different idea of what junil is. He says "obey Me and My code"- he doesn't maintain that people and nations should obey for the sake of obedience if the code they are obeying is wrong (and this is maybe where we differ).

Player three
I'm going to agree with player two on this. Junil enforces the word of the law not the spirit. In lore he uses loopholes quiet often but never breaks the actual law, and I see Dagha as the enforcer of the spirit of the law. But that's in canon FFH and we certainly aren't following canon so you are free to do what you want.

Player two
That's exactly my opinion. In EkoNES, Junil will be interested in the word and Dagda the spirit. Still, moderator do whatever you want - doesn't have to be cannon.

Moderator
i don't want to break from Canon on everything... i'm gonna ask magistar C what he thinks without providing my opinion and we'll go with what he says- please don't post in that thread (it will be in the lore section) until after we get a definitive answer.

 

[Kael]

Though I agree with player 2 and 3 that intent is irrelevant to Junil, intent isn't a concern in a perfect law system.

Junil is the god of law and finding loopholes in his laws would be like showing a greater fire mastery than bhall, deceiving Esus or knowing more than Oghma. So I agree with the Moderator that with his laws there would be no difference between the intent and literal.

Which is where you may run into problems. In your game your treaties may be imperfect, as you are not Junil, and you are certainly unwilling to provide the massive codex of restrictions and details that would cover every eventuality of the treaty and make sure there is no difference between the literal and the intent ("perfect" law). So you have to shorthand it and then play as if it exists.

Specific to your game (and I havent read anything about your game other than your post so Im responding blind), I would rule that it has to be assumed that Junil's treaties are perfect in the literal and in intent. So the player is bound to both and cannot try to sacrifice either side. Junil cannot trick by the letter of the law any more than Lugus could lie to get his way.

If the intent and the literal are in opposition, then I would assume that you have a game mistake and a moderator has to determine how to work it out so that it tries to accomplish both as well as possible. The mistake was the lack of clarity in the initial treaty, which wouldn't have occurred with Junil.

 

[Immaculate]

In this case the treaty concerns laws written by man but judged by junil so the imperfect wording of the treaty will be treated as law as far as junil is concerned.

thank you kael for your clarification.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

You know, treaties really aren't Junil's forte. Dagda is the god concerned both with the making and enforcing of treaties. I tend to think that he would tend to be quite literal in their interpretation too, although not to the extent that Junil would.



Sphener's entry shows Junil in a conundrum when he cannot fulfill his vow to protect the Seven Pines without violating the Compact. We see here that Junil does not like The Compact, but since he has given his word to uphold this imperfect agreement he cannot do otherwise. He personally cannot look for a loophole, but Sphener was able to and he gladly went through with Sphener's plan.

I think Junil sees agreements like this as no different than any other oath, as unbreakable regardless of the circumstances or of the views of any other parties. The Compact really isn't an agreement to him, but a vow that must be upheld even if every other signatory has agreed to a new Compact to replace it. While Dagda is fine with changing agreements with unanimous (or at least very nearly unanimous) consent, Junil would see any attempt to modify the terms of a treaty as outright breaking the oath. Junil would likely consider his fellow gods as criminals for even suggesting it, and would personally not consent to another compact changing the conditions of the first one (although he might agree to those that just add to it or cover different issues), no matter how much he regrets the original and prefers the terms of the new one.



There isn't much associated with modern Lawyers that applies to Junil. Lawyers really tend to embody the Force, Sun, and most of all Mind spheres.

 

[Rutee]

Force and Sun? How's that work out?

<- Law Student

I'm not sure what Force and Sun even /represent/, really.

Also, Mammon's sphere is Mind, right? Because if so, that being one of the ones in there makes total sense. Frankly, I can't imagine Law not being /one/ of the magic types that represents lawyers.

I found it interesting that they hold no place in Bannor society though, despite seeming to be very Rule of Law. Then again, it's probably more like "Rule of Keeping The Peace By Any Means Necessary", isn't it?

 

[Kael]

MC is probably seeing Lawyers not as enforcers of the law but adjudicators and mediators, which is the province of Sun (truth and conversation) and Force (balance and negotiation).

Police may be better representatives of the Law sphere as enforcement agents. Judges are probably best under Force, and lawyers under Sun.

 

[Kjaaly]

Now, it's a few hundred years since I last braved the FfH forums, mostly due to never really getting 'round to buying BtS, but IIRC, force & sun would mean balance & truth. This, in theory, would be the point of a lawyer, but I'd like to think there's a certain amount of shadow in there too .

EDIT: Damnit, ninja'ed by The Grand Master himself.

 

[KillerClowns]

...and lawyers under Sun.

Or Mind, maybe even Shadow, depending on the lawyer in question. [Insert lawyer joke here]

 

[Rutee]

MC is probably seeing Lawyers not as enforcers of the law but adjudicators and mediators, which is the province of Sun (truth and conversation) and Force (balance and negotiation).

Police may be better representatives of the Law sphere as enforcement agents. Judges are probably best under Force, and lawyers under Sun.

This may be a stupid question, but this avatar does serve a purpose, so...

What's Law specifically represent?

Incidentally, Prosecutors serve as enforcers of the law as well, and are also lawyers.

For that matter, what specifically do Mind and Shadow represent?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Law represents justice and order. It is completely unyielding, and always thinks in absolutes. It doesn't place much value on individuals, only on the super-organism of society. It is authoritarian and demands punishment for even the slightest infraction, so as to set an example and discourage anyone else from doing wrong. It does not seek to rehabilitate criminals like the Sun ad Spirit spheres do, and so often resorts to capital punishment. It sees mercy as a major sin, and prefers people fulfill their duties without hesitation or any real thought. It does not really fit in the common law system, or in systems where laws are democratically passed (laws passed through mutual consent rather than absolute decrees are really in the Force sphere). Lastly, it places very high importance on keeping oaths, regardless of how the circumstances may change or if the oath was part of an agreement with someone who did not hold up his end.


Mind was originally about Foresight, but it was corrupted and so now represents greed, devious schemes, a desire to control, shortsightedness, and apathy towards the negative consequences it may cause to innocent bystanders.

Shadow was originally about Trust, but it was corrupted to be about Deception. It is the sphere of lies and half-truths. It is about fooling both others and oneself, about choosing to see what one wants to see in the evidence instead of actually looking for the truth. It seeks to harm others without getting caught. It can lead to paranoia since one assumes that others are as devious as oneself.




Yeah, I guess prosecutors would have a fair about of Law in them, but still probably not as much as Mind, Sun, or Shadow.

 

[Corlis]

I imagine that in a legal system, Law would probably be present most in the executioner...

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Justice is also about meting out punishment, well, justly, and so it wouldn't often resort to capital punishment, unless there was a lot of murder, anyway. It wouldn't forgive petty crimes, but neither would it treat them as severe ones, and it would be very concerned with punishing only the guilty. I don't see why true justice would be blind to extenuating circumstances, either. Someone robbing the armory to fight off invading orcs, or stealing medicine because there was a dying child would have to pay restitution after the fact, even if that meant forced labor, but they would not be regarded as a thief or a criminal.

Also, I doubt Junil is as single minded as you've outlined. A god who would refuse to recognize that a breach of the compact makes it no longer as binding wouldn't be all that useful in checking the evil gods (presumably Cammulos in this case, and I don't really care if I misspelled that). If Junil's foe entered creation, he would likely have opposed him as Sucellus did Mulcarn.

Junil's commands are probably given in exacting legalese as Kael points out; not too different from the medeval Torah scholars who analyzed the Law in detail.

 

[Rutee]

Law represents justice and order. It is completely unyielding, and always thinks in absolutes. It doesn't place much value on individuals, only on the super-organism of society. It is authoritarian and demands punishment for even the slightest infraction, so as to set an example and discourage anyone else from doing wrong. It does not seek to rehabilitate criminals like the Sun ad Spirit spheres do, and so often resorts to capital punishment. It sees mercy as a major sin, and prefers people fulfill their duties without hesitation or any real thought. It does not really fit in the common law system, or in systems where laws are democratically passed (laws passed through mutual consent rather than absolute decrees are really in the Force sphere). Lastly, it places very high importance on keeping oaths, regardless of how the circumstances may change or if the oath was part of an agreement with someone who did not hold up his end.


Mind was originally about Foresight, but it was corrupted and so now represents greed, devious schemes, a desire to control, shortsightedness, and apathy towards the negative consequences it may cause to innocent bystanders.

Shadow was originally about Trust, but it was corrupted to be about Deception. It is the sphere of lies and half-truths. It is about fooling both others and oneself, about choosing to see what one wants to see in the evidence instead of actually looking for the truth. It seeks to harm others without getting caught. It can lead to paranoia since one assumes that others are as devious as oneself.

Yeah, I guess prosecutors would have a fair about of Law in them, but still probably not as much as Mind, Sun, or Shadow.

Yanno, not really. I mean, yes to Law, but not nearly as much the others. If Force is supposed to be the closest fit to modern common law, then they'd be that, though. As 'brutal' as a prosecutor can choose to be (I've seen some.. interesting cases tried that I would think would have been dropped, given their discretion), there's generally very little deception. In fact, prosecutors are held to higher degrees of disclosure than defense attorneys. Perhaps of the self, to the extent htat extreme cynicism can do that; Generally speaking, they step into the court room fully convinced of the defendant's guilt period (Or at least, that's the proper mindset for it). Mind.. keep in mind these are generally people who gave up more attractive job offers to work for the state. In most fields that's a step up, but in terms of financial gains, it's a step down for most legal professionals. Then again, prosecutor can serve as a political stepping stone, done correctly. In those individuals, yes, it becomes a matter of the corrupted version. I have no idea how much stuff can be used properly after corrupted; Given how much the Bannor seem to like burning things, I'm betting a corrupted sphere isn't completely, but I wouldn't know.

In American Law, Force definitely plays a large part of it, due to how much the criminal law really comes down to negotiation. The lion's share of cases don't go to trial as such, but rather are plead down. Other countries, if I recall correctly, are not nearly so permissive in regards to pleas.

 

[Tasunke]

There is a difference between collegiate mindset and practical application, yet you do have a point. I'd say 30% law, 40% force, 10% sun, 10% shadow, and 10% mind.

law, force and sun are in the higher legal aspects, as well as overall atmosphere and mindset.

shadow and mind are needed in order to bring points across to the laypeople in a presentable manner. As well to be more wary of loopholes.

Therefore in certain instances ... mind and shadow play a greater part ... although as you say, those working for the state would most likely be held in more sway by force and law.