How Technology is handled

[mathurian]

I was going over the Civilopedia and noticing how many units "replace" other units and I couldn't help but wonder about a system I've seen used in other mods (specifically the Warhammer Mod for Civ3):

Can't you just make a technology give different units to different civs without everything "replacing" some other unit? Or is there a reason that we want to keep the "replacing" idea? A simple way (at least it seems so to me ) would be to give each civ a unique (and unresearchable) starting tech (i.e. "Dwarven Tech") that is a prerequisite for all their unique units, that way each civ could get unique units from whatever other tech made sense. Also, this would allow a simple way to add unique traits to each civ (and make an easy summary visible at the start of each game by holding your cursor over your unique tech).

If this is a useless suggestion, please feel free to disregard it

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Can't you just make a technology give different units to different civs without everything "replacing" some other unit?

this is what we did in the very first release of the mod years ago well before the time of most of the other team members. this was removed in favour of the replacement UUs to dramatically reduce the file size of the mod and improve gameplay. it also means less work for us in general

give each civ a unique (and unresearchable) starting tech (i.e. "Dwarven Tech") that is a prerequisite for all their unique units,

this is already pretty much done. most civs have a tech that no one else can research (some are hidden and not displayed in the tech tree and some dont currently do anything but will in the future)

but if you have any other ideas regarding technology please share them here im interested for others oppinions

 

[Ahriman]

What is the advantage of this method? When unit X (eg dark elf corsairs, or whatever they're called) replaces unit Y you can already give X different tech requirements; corsairs require navigation for eg.

So with this suggested method, you still have all the various UUs listed in each of their tech requirements, because they still need those techs.

There is also a limit on the number of techs that can be required for a unit I think; max of 2?
So a unit that already needs 2 techs would then need 3 techs (the 2 normal techs plus the unique racial tech), which would be a problem. I may be misrecalling this limit.

And the "replaces X" is also easier for a player to figure out what role a particular UU has, and whether it is better or worse than the unit it is replacing.

It would also add another ~12+ techs to the tech tree, at least.

Many races do have a unique tech for their magic, but they don't start with it (or won't once we fix the tech tree), because it allows their starting mage unit or some unit that we don't want available at the start of the game.

In fact, I don't think any of the races start with their magic tech (or won't in the design once we fix them), and 2/3 of the races either don't have a racial magic tech or share it with other races (like how ork/goblins share WAAAGH! tech but won't share all their units).

So, what would be the benefits of adopting this, other than a slightly easier way to see all the UUs and UBs for a particular faction?

 

[mathurian]

I guess as I think about it, the main issue I have really isn't the one I raised (go figure).

The main issue I have is that the "unique" units don't really seem all that special, just slightly (very slightly in some cases) different versions of normal units. I was thinking that if you switched the way civs got units, it might make it different units "styles" easier, but that's what I'd really like.

I just feel that (by and large) the civs play too similarly. It's possible that I'm missing something, and it's possible that this is largely a result of the incompleteness of the mod, but the doesn't seem to be a ton of differentiation between even the more finished civs, and an easy way to accomplish that is to make the military forces "feel" very different.

For example, the Brettonians should (IMO) have calvalry that is simply better than basically anyone else, while the Dwarves should have almost no fast-moving units at all. There are many more examples, and I haven't played enough to make definiteive judgements, but I'd like to see civs that play truly differently from each other.

Note: I do understand that balance becomes a major issue when you have different playstyles (especially given that the AI may do better with some than others), and if this isn't feasible for that reason I do understand, but from the perspective of a WHFB tabletop player, one of the things I love is that different armies quite simply "feel" vastly different and have quite different capabilities.

 

[Ahriman]

The main issue I have is that the "unique" units don't really seem all that special, just slightly (very slightly in some cases) different versions of normal units.

Many/most UUs *will* just be tweaked versions of current units. Thats pretty much inevitable; its just not possible to have wild variations and retain balance, and to have 16+ unit rosters that are all very different. They're an extra strength point here, an extra starting promotion there, an extra 20% strength vs a particular combat type here, but hopefully in a way that gets across strengths and weaknesses of different army rosters.

But even those differences can make pretty big play differences; the fact that chaos races get a swordsman with +1 attack and -1 defense makes them play quite differently.

I just feel that (by and large) the civs play too similarly.

At the moment, this is true. There are a lot of design changes that we've planned but not yet implemented that make the differences between factions much larger.

Most factions don't even really have their UUs implemented.

Brettonnia *does* have the best (and the most) knights in the game, but they're pretty late tech. Their horsemen and cavalry do get 3 moves and so are pretty strong, but maybe they should also get a minor boost.
Dwarves will have almost no fast moving units at all (they'll lose basically all their chariots and cavalry) but better siege, fortification bonuses, and tougher infantry.

Civs that play differently from a military standpoint is a key design goal of this mod; we have a lot of it on paper, unfortunately it just hasn't made it into the mod yet.

To take a look at the planned design, take a look at some of these links:
[Note that not all of the links will work, since some are to the private development forum.]

Basically, take a look at these and see if you think they'll help to get across what you want to see. If not, then add more suggestions in the relevant threads.

Tech tree design:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...=294254&page=9 Post 175
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...294254&page=11 Post 214

Combat system design:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=301998

Faction design:
Beastmen: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=313730
Chaos Dwarves: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=313960
Ogres: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=313877
Vampire counts: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=291659
Greenskins: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...=301877&page=2
Kislev: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=292506
Dwarves: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=291330
Estalia, Tilea, Ind, Araby, Cathay, Nippon, Skaven: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=290972
Tomb Kings: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=293441
Salvation religion: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...=290986&page=3, Post 45
Chaos religion: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...=290986&page=3
Recon units: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=293049
Empire, Brettonnia, Kurgan, Norsca, Hung, Wood elves: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=292016
High elves, dark elves: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=291493

Leader trait changes:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=306048

 

[mathurian]

I can't see a lot of them (either missing or I don't have permission), but it does seem like it would at least be siginficantly better as implemented there, so I guess I'll wait and see (and maybe make a few suggestions as I see the opportunity)

 

[Ahriman]

I think 3/4 you should be able to see. Ones you won't IIRC are chaos dwarves, beastmen, ogres, greenskins, but you should be able to see a lot of the others (they're in this forum).

 

[mathurian]

Well here's what I've got:

Page not found:
both tech tree designs
Greenskins
Salvation Religion
Chaos Religion


Lack Permission:
Combat system design
Beastmen
Chaos Dwarves
Ogres


Opens fine:
Vampire Counts
Kislev
Dwarves
Estalia/others
Tomb Kings
Recon Units
Empire/others
High Elves/Dark Elves
Leader Traits

 

[Ahriman]

The perils of copy and paste; it just copies the displayed text, even when that is a shortened url.

Try this.
The lack permission ones are from the other forum, let me know which ones you're interested in and I can paste some of the contents here.

Tech tree design:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=294254&page=9 Post 175
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=294254&page=11 Post 214

Combat system design:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=301998

Faction design:
Beastmen: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=313730
Chaos Dwarves: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=313960
Ogres: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=313877
Vampire counts: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=291659
Greenskins: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=301877&page=2
Kislev: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=292506
Dwarves: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=291330
Estalia, Tilea, Ind, Araby, Cathay, Nippon, Skaven: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=290972
Tomb Kings: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=293441
Salvation religion: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=290986&page=3, Post 45
Chaos religion: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=290986&page=3
Recon units: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=293049
Empire, Brettonnia, Kurgan, Norsca, Hung, Wood elves: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=292016
High elves, dark elves: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=291493

Leader trait changes:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=306048

 

[Ahriman]

Combat system changes (one of the most important changes we need to get implemented) recopied here:

Ignoring the recon line for now (these were in another thread), we have:

For reference, the current system:
(ignoring UU replacements)

Spoiler :

Melee line:
Tier0:
Warrior. Strength 3, can use wartats, +25% city defense.

Tier 1: Axeman/swordsman warband. Strength 4, can use bronze/iron weapons or wartats. 1 first strike, +1 first strike.
Tier 1: Spearman warband. Strength 3, can use bronze/iron weapons or wartats, 1 first strike, +50% vs mounted units.
Tier2: Militia swordsman. Strength 5 can use bronze/iron weapons. 1 first strike, +1 first strike.
Tier2: Militia spearmanStrength 4, can use bronze/iron weapons, 1 first strike, +50% vs mounted units.
Tier3: Pikemen. Strength 5/7, can use bronze/iron weapons, 1 first strike, +25% vs melee units, +50% vs mounted units.
Tier3: Royal Guard. Strength 8, can use bronze/iron weapons, 1 first strike, +10% city defense, +25% vs beasts, +25% vs melee, Bodyguard. Requires iron, requires Citadel.

Mounted line:
All these get terrain penalties: -35% wetland strength, -25% forest, ancient forest, jungle, deep jungle strength.
All also get no defensive bonuses.
All require horses.
Tier1: ancient cavalry. Strength 4, can use wartats/bronze/iron, 2 moves. 15% withdraw. +25% vs chariot, +50% vs siege units.
Tier2: light cavalry. Strength 6/4, can use bronze/iron, 3 moves, 25% withdraw, 1 first strike, +10% vs archery units, +25% vs chariots, +50 vs siege, flank attack vs siege units. Requires iron or copper, rstable.
Tier2: horsearcher warband. Strength 6/7, can use wartats, 3 moves. Cannot enter marsh. +25% withdraw, immune to first strikes, +25% vs chariot, +10% vs archery. Flank attack vs siege. Requires iron or copper (which it can't even use!).
Tier3: Knight. Strength 10/7, can use bronze/iron weapons. 2 moves. cannot enter marshes. 15% withdraw chance. +25% vs beasts. Flank attack vs siege. Requires iron, requires Joust building.
Tier3: Cavalry. Strength 8/6, can use bronze/iron weapons. 2 moves. 1 first strike chance. Requires iron or copper, requires stable. Cannot enter marsh, 30% withdraw chance. +25% vs gunpowder units, +50% vs siege units, flank attack vs siege.

Note that flank attack vs siege currently does nothing, because siege units are immune to collateral damage.

Chariot line:
All chariots get: cannot enter marsh, jungle, ancient forest.
no defensive bonuses
+25% vs melee
25% withdraw chance.
-40% wetland strength, -50% jungle strength, -50% deep jungle strength, -50% ancient forest strength.
Tier2: chariot. 5/3, can use bronze/iron. 2 moves. Require bronze or iron, requires wheelwright.
Tier3: war chariot. 10/4, can use bronze/iron. 2 moves. 1-2 first strikes. Requires bronze or iron weapons, wheelwright.

Archery line:
All can bombard 1 tile away for up to 10% damage.
Tier1: archer warband. Strength 3/5. Can use wartats, quality bows. 1-2 first strikes. +25% city defense, +25% hills defense.
Tier2: militia bowmen. Strength 4/6. Can use wartats, quality bows. 2-3 first strikes. +50% city defense, +25% hills defense.
Tier3: crossbowmen. Strength 7, Can use wartats, quality bows. 1 first strike. +50 vs melee, +25% city defense, +25% hills defense.
Tier3: longbowmen. Strength 6/8. Can use wartats, quality bows. 2-3 first strikes. +25% city defense, +25% hills defense.
Tier3: handgunner. Strength 8/9, Can use bronze/iron weapons, 2 first strikes. +25% city defense, +25% hills defense. Requires iron or copper, requires barracks
Very very high tech requirements (rifling tech requirements are crazy).

This system has several problems.
1. There is little incentive for unit specialisation. You can easily use just melee line, in particular.
2. Spearmen are underpowered, it is almost never worth building them; their base strength is just too low.
3. Many units get weird first strikes, for reasons unexplained.
4. Many bonuses are strange or unclear; horsearchers are very good vs missile units (immune to first strikes), they should be weak against such units.
Handgunners are great city defenders and are very very powerful; historically these are good field units, not great city defenders.
5. Too many building and resource requirements.

My suggest alternative tries to fix these.
In particular, in introduces more specialisation;
axes/swords good vs melee.
Spears good vs shock cav.
Shock cav good vs missile, chariot.
Missile cav good vs melee.
Chariot good vs melee.
missile good vs missile cav.

All UUs should be as to these units as they currently are to their current design.
(eg: verezzo crossbowmen are crossbowmen with an extra first strike. They should remain so, but change in accordance with the changes to the base crossbowman so that they are still a crossbowmen with an extra first strike).

Spoiler :

Melee line:
Axeman warband. Strength 4, can use wartats/bronze/iron weapons. +25% vs melee units, +10% city attack.
Spearman warband. Strength 4. Can use wartats/bronze/iron weapons. +25% vs shock cavalry units, 10% vs chariot units.
Militia Swordsman. Strength 5. Can use bronze/iron/steel/meteoric iron weapons. +25% vs melee units, +10% city attack.
Militia Spearman. Strength 5. +25% vs shock cavalry units. +10% vs chariot units. Can use bronze/iron/steel/meteoric iron weapons.
Pikemen. Strength 5/7. +25% vs melee units. +25% vs chariot units. +40% vs shock cavalry units. Can use bronze/iron/steel/meteoric iron weapons.
Royal guard. Strength 8. Can use bronze/iron/steel/meteoric iron weapons. Bodyguard. +25% vs melee units.

Archery line:
All can bombard (as current).
Archer warband. Strength 3/5. Can use wartats, quality bows. +25% city defence. +25% hill defense. 1 First Strike. +25% vs missile cavalry.
Militia archers. Strength 4/6. Can use wartats/quality bows 1-2 First strikes. +40% city defense. +25% hills defense. +25% vs missile cavalry.
Crossbowmen. Strength 7. Can use meteoric iron/quality bows. 1 First strike. +20% city defense. +20% hills defence. +40% vs melee units.
Longbowmen. Strength 6/8. Can use meteoric iron/quality bows. 1-2 First strikes. +25% city defense. +25% hills defense. +25% vs missile cavalry.
Handgunners: Strength 7/9. Can use meteoric iron. Can NOT use bronze/iron weapons. 1-2 first strikes. +25% vs melee units, +25% hills defense. +25% vs missile cavalry.

Shock cavalry line:
All units have terrain penalties as current. -25% forest/ancientforest/jungle/deepjungle/wetland/marsh attack, -25% forest/ancientforest/jungle/deepjungle/wetland/marsh defense, does not get defensive bonuses.
Ancient cavalry. Strength 4, 2 moves. Can use wartats/bronze/iron weapons. Can withdraw from combat 15%. +25% vs chariots, +25% vs missile units, +25% vs missile cavalry.
Lancers. Strength 6/4, 3 moves. Can use bronze/iron/steel/meteoric iron weapons. Can withdraw from combat 25%, +25% vs missile units, +25% vs chariots, +50% vs siege units.
Knights. Strength 10/7. 2 moves. Can use bronze/iron/steel/meteoric iron weapons. Can withdraw from combat 15%. 25% vs archers.

Chariots:
All units have terrain penalties as current. Cannot enter marsh, jungle. -25% wetland attack/wetland defense. -50% forest/ancientforest/deepjungle attack, -50% forest/ancientforest/jungle/deepjungle defense
Chariot Strength 5/3, 2 moves. Can get bronze/iron/steel/meteoric iron weapons. Can withdraw from combat (25% chance). +25% vs melee units.
Warchariot. 10/4, 2 moves. Can get bronze/iron/steel/meteoric iron weapons. Can withdraw from combat (25% chance). +25% vs melee units.

Missile cavalry line:
All units have terrain penalties as current. -25% forest/ancientforest/jungle/deepjungle/wetland/marsh attack, -25% forest/ancientforest/jungle/deepjungle/wetland/marsh defense, does not get defensive bonuses.
Horsearcher warband. Strength 7, 3 moves. Can use quality bows, meteoric iron. +25% vs melee units. Flank attack vs siege units. Can withdraw from combat 30%.
(some horsearchers UUs will get flank attack vs melee units as well).
Cavalry. Strength 10/8. 2 moves. Can use meteoric iron. +25% vs melee units. Can withdraw from combat 30%. Flank attack vs siege units.