How the AI cheats

[Light-Giver]

I remember reading twards the end of the abriged manual about how the diffrent dificulties effect the game. The lower than the set difficulty is the harder longer it takes the AI to research and build stuff. Warlord and under it is posible to get settlers and workers from barb huts, also barb huts give you better stuff.

BUT...
As you go up in difficulty they have a discount on tech and building stuff. Monarch and over they start the game with a worker, effectivly giveing them a 10 turn lead. Then if you go higher in difficulty it is 2 workers, on the hardest lvl it is the regular starting units + 2 workers + an extra settler! No wonder AIs are always good in the early starts of the game and have better citys.

O and as you go up in difficulty your free health and happyness gose down and i suspect the AIs health and happyness goes up.

 

[gunkulator]

All versions of Civ have increased difficulty this way.

 

[3 EMS]

I bet Sid and his cronies are in cahoots with that Bellicheck fella.

 

[warpstorm]

It's not like it's a secret.

 

[el toro loco]

it cheats in other ways too.

i was playing game the other day. and my nearest neighbor started attacking me w/ axeman and swordsman a lot earlier than normal.

so i go to world builder just out of curiousity. turns out he has no bronze or iron hooked up. then i go to every other civilization to see if maybe they traded w/ him. it was pretty early so it didn't take very long to examine every city. only 2 civilizations had bronze and both of them only had one hooked up. so it would seem that it would be impossible for neighbor to be building swordsman. and very unlikely that someone would have traded their only bronze for axeman. yet my neighbor definitely had both. i'd call that cheating.

unless there is another way to get those things.

plus i would say that knowing every single move you make is a pretty good form of cheating.

 

[Refar]

The AI needs a Headstart to compete on higher levels. The handicaps are well known. Deal with it.

I wonder, why there are never threads about "The Human Cheats" - because on lower difficultie YOU will get free techs, cheaper research, etc... Not to mention the humans ability to actually "cheat" via Worldbuilder or Reloading...

@ El Toro Loco - You are aware, thet there are Civ's who have a ressource-free Sword or Axe UU ? (Dog Soldier, Jaguar)... Otherwise, if the AI built a units that require a Ressource without it - i never seen this happen - this would be a bug - provide a save in Bug-forum and/or Bhruics thread, and it might get fixed.

 

[Wejer]

This has gone over a few times already

Please, can someone dig up the numbers? (I have to go to work...)

 

[Sir Janus]

It is not cheating. It's a handicap system.

- Nobody is trying to pretend that the AI does not get bonuses at higher levels.
- The AI cannot have the bonuses unless you give them to it by selecting a higher level.
- If you do not agree with the AI having the bonuses then play at a lower level.
- People that play at a level below noble and therefore get bonuses over the AI are not cheating.

Simple enough.

 

[magicalsushi]

it cheats in other ways too.

i was playing game the other day. and my nearest neighbor started attacking me w/ axeman and swordsman a lot earlier than normal.

so i go to world builder just out of curiousity. turns out he has no bronze or iron hooked up. then i go to every other civilization to see if maybe they traded w/ him. it was pretty early so it didn't take very long to examine every city. only 2 civilizations had bronze and both of them only had one hooked up. so it would seem that it would be impossible for neighbor to be building swordsman. and very unlikely that someone would have traded their only bronze for axeman. yet my neighbor definitely had both. i'd call that cheating.

unless there is another way to get those things.

Maybe goody huts?

plus i would say that knowing every single move you make is a pretty good form of cheating.

Yep. Apparently, allowing the AI to ignore the fog of war simplifies things a lot for the programmers, which is fair enough. However, I don't see why the human players should have to put up with it when the AIs don't. Also, one of the designers stated in an interview that it was a good way to simplify the code because "surprisingly, none of the players mind", or something to that effect. Well, *I* mind, thank you very much, and if no-one else would mind, why don't Firaxis make it more clear that the game's programmed that way? Could it possibly be because - ooh, I don't know - it might annoy many players if they found out about it?

 

[Feanor01]

If you don't like it, why don't you play on an easier level. I think it would be too hard to program an AI to increase in complexity when you select harder levels. It is much easier to penalize you (or reward the AI). Not a big deal since you select the difficulty you play at!

 

[Windsor]

Yep. Apparently, allowing the AI to ignore the fog of war simplifies things a lot for the programmers, which is fair enough. However, I don't see why the human players should have to put up with it when the AIs don't.

The introduction of "fog of war" really made strategy games alot better. It adds a lot of fun to the game, especially the need for intelligence/spies/recon which really is a huge part of most strategy games, including Civ. Removing it would be a real shame and a big step backwards.

But even if the AI can ignore the fog it doesn't really use this ability as good as humans would. Humans would spot a military build-up alot sooner than the AI does.

I don't mind if the AI has certain advantages if it makes the overall gaming experience better and Civ never gives me the feeling that the AI "cheats".

 

[Cutlass]

The AI needs the "cheats" because the AI sucks at strategy and tactics.

 

[Rub'Rum]

Sometimes I want to complain about that too... And I play on Noble and it's enough a challenge for me right now. I moved up to as fast as I could because it annoyed me to think that me and the AI weren't on the same base. I don't know if I'll ever move up in difficulty level though, if I do, it'll have to be because the game will have become extremely easy for me on Noble.

That being said, how else are we supposed to make difficulty levels than with playing with handicaps? Do you want a scaled "intelligence"? I'm not sure I'd like to think that on lower levels I'm playing against a "******** AI" and on higher levels against a "Gasparov AI". Plus, I'm not sure how you'd program "retardedness" and "Gasparovness". "Oh I'm winning because this AI was specifically programmed not to go for that iron/bronze resource until his 5th city"; great plan really. I don't know how difficulty levels work in other strategy games, but I remember the days back when Warcraft 2 and Starcraft... well... I don't remember them even having difficulty level choices, did they? How did they work if there were any?

In conclusion, AI is a program, there are only two ways I see to make it harder or easier; artificial retardedness, or handicaps. You choose.

 

[warpus]

Apparently, allowing the AI to ignore the fog of war simplifies things a lot for the programmers, which is fair enough.

Nah.. the developers are lazy... for many reasons.. this being one of them.

(I don't agree with the OP, btw)

 

[Walliard]

I thought they stopped seeing through the fog in Civ4?

 

[Light-Giver]

I thought they stopped seeing through the fog in Civ4?

Yes they did i remember seeing that in a thread earlyer eather comparing civ 3 and 4 or a update saying the AI no longer has knowlage of the map beforehand and has to explore like the rest of use. But humans can cheat and look at worldbuilder

 

[magicalsushi]

I thought they stopped seeing through the fog in Civ4?

I was basing it on an old interview (with Soren?) that someone here linked to last week...I'm pretty sure it was about Civ 4. It'd be nice if they have stopped though. I'm not even that convinced that it does make life easier for programmers - it means there's more information to deal with - but they've programmed strategy games and I haven't, so I'll take their word for it.

I see it as a somewhat different type of issue to the "normal" handicaps, however. With things like bonsues/penalties to production and research, or bonus starting units, you know what the AI's getting, and you have control over it via difficulty settings. They still play the same game as you, but they have an easier or harder time than you. With an issue like ignoring the fog of war, however, it's like you're not even playing the same game. It's a fundmental change. Also, it doesn't vary with difficulty level; you have no control over it. It's not something that Firaxis make clear, either - the game gives you a vague description of how the difficulty levels are different, and you can look up the details in the XML (which is designed to be reasonably player-readable), but nowhere does it say that the AI will ignore the fog of war. If you told a new Civ player that the AI pays less for buildings on higher difficulty levels, they'd probably say "yeah, it said something about that in the manual; I guess I'll play the lower difficulty levels until I'm ready", whereas if you told them about the fog of war issue, I can imagine the reaction being more along the lines of "huh? That sucks! How's that fair?".

 

[lutzj]

Apparently, allowing the AI to ignore the fog of war simplifies things a lot for the programmers, which is fair enough. However, I don't see why the human players should have to put up with it when the AIs don't.

The AI has much less capability to remember past events, especially things like units locations/movements, so they get to peer several tiles farther into the FoW more than the human to compensate (no, they don't ignore the entire thing). It would only take a simple mod to disable it completely if you wanted to, but you might be scared by how much more intelligent the AI becomes. Stop whining.

 

[Silence101]

I think the AI should have access to world builder. Next time you axe rush the AI, don't be surprised if they show up with 40 tanks to take the city back!

 

[warpstorm]

The thing to consider on AI issues like FOW, is that to make the AI play competitive without any extra knowledge will take more RAM and CPU time. (In addition to more programmer time which means either something else is cut or the price is raised - no game programmers I know personally work for free).