How the hell...

MikeUK

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Apr 15, 2008
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...do people win domination victories on Bts? On my game I'm currently on Warlord level and are up against 3 other opponents, one being the Greeks. It took ages to build up an army to attack the Greeks, which mainly consisted of Trebuchets, some pikemen and horse archers. I couldn't upgrade my units because that costs an absolute fortune! I had a stack of about 27 units which I managed to take over two cities with. However it then went pear shaped, with the Greeks attacking my stack with macemen and trebuchets. My stack has now completely gone and the Greeks have taken over one of my cities! I have no chance against them!!
I feel like tearing my hair out, because I've still got two more opponents to face. It honestly feels like the computer cheats regularly because it manages to get LOADS of units together to attack and its cities just start popping up all over the place! :mad:

What am I doing wrong? PS I don't know how to leave a link to my save game!
 
The computer does not cheat until prince.

The computer also never cheats when building wonders. I'd like to point you over to virus monster's 500k score strategy guide Here

I find the best thing to do is read and practice...Learn to get a good build order, use whipping and chopping, etc.
 
Way to general to actually give advice. You should read some beginners guides in the war academy and look at some of the games being displayed online in the strategy forums to get a feel for what other people do.
 
I've been playing on big/small on warlord and just spammed warriors constantly from the start. Quickly searched for the enemy and pushed through, usually end up with 5 capital cities (4 captured ones), money's a worry but you end up with a big empire quickly. My econamy goes specialist, then build boats and take the last civs out.
its not a domination win, but you could easily go that way after securing the big island.
Inca's good for this as the UU as an advantage over the standard warrior but you can use others. You must remain focused on pumping out warriors, dont be distracted by pretty buildings.

Warriors feel too weak to rush with but bare in mind thats all the AI will have and probably only have 1 or 2 in his only city, if you turn up with 3 you should be ok.

Not suggesting this works well on higher levels.
 
I've been playing on big/small on warlord and just spammed warriors constantly from the start. Quickly searched for the enemy and pushed through, usually end up with 5 capital cities (4 captured ones), money's a worry but you end up with a big empire quickly. My econamy goes specialist, then build boats and take the last civs out.
its not a domination win, but you could easily go that way after securing the big island.
Inca's good for this as the UU as an advantage over the standard warrior but you can use others. You must remain focused on pumping out warriors, dont be distracted by pretty buildings.

Warriors feel too weak to rush with but bare in mind thats all the AI will have and probably only have 1 or 2 in his only city, if you turn up with 3 you should be ok.

Not suggesting this works well on higher levels.


You mean Quechas, Not warriors *
 
id suggest focusing on speed and using the best attack units possible. In my experience, horse archers are not a great city attacking unit, good for pillaging, but I don't find myself ever building many of them. If I'm trying to war in the early/mid game, my city taking army will be almost entirely, from early war to middle war: axemen -> swordsmen -> elephants -> macemen/crossbowmen. (with most all of them promoted with city raider) Always accompanied my plenty of the latest siege engine and whatever necessary defensive units. The key is to pick the right time to launch the attack, preferably as soon as you research the tech to build one of the above units. Hopefully you will have a slight tech lead, enough to be able to take atleast a few cities before your enemy upgrades their obsolete units.

Because speed is key, I suggest you get good at whipping and chopping to churn out an attack force in atleast 10 turns. Then, keep building units to reinforce the attack force.
 
Yes the Quechas, the UU of the inca's, that are better than warriors.

It works with a normal warrior as well, just can run out of steam once archers arrive on the seen, the quechas keep it going a little longer but a huge number of warriors can still overcome the odd archer that the AI's built.
 
Genv [FP];6762298 said:
The computer does not cheat until prince.

Well, if you ignore: war weariness, supply and upgrade costs, as well as intra-AI diplomacy!
 
Unit upgrades are very expensive. Are you trying to use civ3-style tactics & strategies, because many don't work in Civ4 (unit upgrades being one!)

Watch you economy carefully. If you;re falling behind in tech, it might be because you have too many useless units, and too many cities: ie your maintenance costs are too high.
 
Dont build to many cities, dont build to many troops.

If you want to have a good run, play with the following settings.

1. Marathon Speed (so units you do build actually have some life spann)
2. Raging Barbs (make sure you build the great wall)
3. No tech trading (stops AI spamming tech all over the place)
4. No goodie huts (prevents AI from popping rifling out of huts)

Now, pick an easy playing race, something with Fin or Org and prefferably CRE as well. This means, either Dutch or Ethiopia.

Ok, start the game by building a city then research Mining -> Bronzeworking -> Masonary
In the mean time, try to build a warrior, but put your city on growth, try to grow to 3ppl or 2 ppl when your first warrior is done. Build 1 Worker, chop the second. Now, if masonary is researched, chop the great wall with BOTH workers.

After that, research terain improvements and build a couple of cities. 4 or 5 extra cities should be enough on a large/huge map. Make sure you get pottery ASAP as well and build some cottages.

Then, go for the CoL slingshot. For that, research Meditation -> Priesthood -> Writing. Start building Oracle as soon as Priesthood is done, but make sure it does NOT finish building it before writing is done. The turn after writing is done, finish the Oracle and pick Codes of Law. This will give you hopefully a religion, but more importantly courthouses.

Spam courthouses, libs, graneries and cottages around the world. Make 2 production monsters, the rest eco towns. After that, build a defensive stack, nothing to big, call it army group 1 (3 spears 7 axes). While you CANT win a war with that small army, it will allow you to defend.

Keep researching, pick an age where you wanna kick ass and once you are almost there, start spamming troops and support units.

If you play Eth and want to attack with Oromo's, then start spamming cats a bit before you get gunpowder. That way you can quickly build a few Oromo's and can attack quicker.

Planning is life. Plan ahead, but be flexible. For example, once you can build knights, build a couple.

Also, the larger your land gets, the more Army Groups you need. Little stacks for rapid response when AI declares war on you.
 
...do people win domination victories on Bts? On my game I'm currently on Warlord level and are up against 3 other opponents, one being the Greeks. It took ages to build up an army to attack the Greeks, which mainly consisted of Trebuchets, some pikemen and horse archers. I couldn't upgrade my units because that costs an absolute fortune! I had a stack of about 27 units which I managed to take over two cities with. However it then went pear shaped, with the Greeks attacking my stack with macemen and trebuchets. My stack has now completely gone and the Greeks have taken over one of my cities! I have no chance against them!!
I feel like tearing my hair out, because I've still got two more opponents to face. It honestly feels like the computer cheats regularly because it manages to get LOADS of units together to attack and its cities just start popping up all over the place! :mad:

What am I doing wrong? PS I don't know how to leave a link to my save game!
I detect 3 problems here:

1) Build times: You say it took a long time to build up your army. Obviously that's bad because, depending on the game speed (especially normal or faster), the army can be obsolete before it shows up at the battlefield. So you need to accelerate your military builds.

First off, make sure you have some good production cities--these should have a mix of good food tiles and good hammer tiles (you need the food because hammer-heavy tiles are food-poor). These become your military centres.

Second, take advantage of whipping and chopping. Run the Slavery civic and learn how to whip so you get an overflow of hammers into the next build. Prioritize Mathematics to enhance the output of chopped forests.

Third, get an early unit up to Level 4 (3 promotions) by fighting barbarians so you can build the Heroic Epic. Build the HE in one of your best production cities, preferably a coastal one, so it can give its 100% military unit production boost to both naval and land units. Devote this city to mainly producing units and very little else, except as needed to keep its citizens happy and healthy.

All of the above should help you produce your attacking army faster.

2) Stack composition: Okay, Trebuchets are good, but Horse Archers and Pikemen? Nuh-uh. Pikemen are purely for defense from mounted units; to my mind, they're not attacking units. And HAs aren't that useful overall. Remember that they get a -10% penalty when attacking cities. And where are your Longbowmen to ensure you could hang on to your gains?

I like my medieval-era stacks to consist of the following:
  • 6-10 Macemen with City Raider promotions
  • A Combat/Shock promoted Maceman for general protection
  • 3-4 Knights, mostly with Flanking promotions
  • 1 or 2 Crossbowmen for protection from melee units
  • 1 or 2 Pikemen for protection from mounted units
  • 1 or 2 Longbowmen with City Garrison promotions for each city you intend to capture (if you can also include a Crossbow, Knight, and Pike for each city, so much the better; see below)
  • Trebuchets, Trebuchets, Trebuchets. Try to field a dozen if you can, but more is always better.
That probably sounds like a lot, but if you follow my advice regarding production above, you should be able to produce this stack without too much trouble. Just devote every city to producing units for a while. By this point in the game your cities should be of a decent size and have the production required to churn out units for several turns.

If you find you just don't have enough cities to produce a good-sized medieval stack, you're probably not going to war early enough. 4 to 6 cities is fine to produce a classical-era stack, but not enough for the medieval era. So if you find yourself only able to expand to that many decent cities before the AI hems you in, you may need to go to war much earlier in order to acquire the land and cities you need to produce later units.

3) City Defense: I'm convinced that the AI is programmed to make recapturing one of its lost cities a very high priority. It will send stacks at a lost city repeatedly in an effort to get it back. So besides offensive units, you'll need defensive ones too. As I said above, the best medieval city defenders are Longbowmen, who have a +25% bonus for that task, and when you give them City Garrison promotions, they become nearly unbeatable--mainly because the AI is rather clueless regarding siege weapons.

The AI is also fond of mounted units, so bringing along some Pikemen and fortifying them in the city is also helpful.

Longbowmen, however, are for "passive" defense. To weigh the scales even further in your favour, bring along some units for "active" defense.

A couple of Catapults with Combat/Barrage promotions can weaken an enemy stack that pulls up next to your new acquisition. Even if you make no attacks with other units, the enemy stack will be weakened and will have less success against your city defeders.

Knights are particularly strong active defenders, able to foray out of the city and retreat back into it. They're the only unit that makes mincemeat out of Crossbowmen, they chew up Macemen admirably as well, and in BtS, they can now cause flanking damage to Catapults and Trebuchets. Flanking promotions mean they may survive battles where the odds are against them.

Crossbows are also useful defenders against melee units like Maces and Pikes. And Pikemen can do double-duty, fortifying inside the city, but also venturing out to attack the lone mounted units the AI likes to foolishly send in on recon/pillaging missions.

----------

Another thing you may want to consider is your game speed. As I said, on normal speed you may find your units becoming obsolete before you get to use them. If you haven't tried epic speed or even marathon, give one of them a shot. Things take longer to research and build, but unit movement is unchanged.
 
First thing about Civ IV and BTS is that all games are situational depending on a slew of factors e.g. the civ you play, your starting position and resources, the civs playing against you, and so on.
After the situational factors are taken into account, then it comes down to your knowledge of the game and your skill as a player. It will take you several games or more to get a grip on how to play this game effectively. Don't increase levels of difficulty until you are winning most of the time at your current level.
I think you should go down in difficulty at least one level and practice some of the suggestions you have been given. Check out the strategy articles on this board and keep on working to improve your game. You will slowly begin to understand the dynamics in this game and will become a better player.
Civs gang up on the human player whenever it is to their advantage to do so, and learning how to deal with these situations is a requirement of becoming a competing BTS player.
 
Just a reminder, in BtS, Horse Archers do NOT recieve a -10% attack penalty when attacking cities. So, Horse Archers are OK. Horse archers + pikes aren't a good combo, however. Horse Archers + Macemen (or Axemen), and a WHOLE BUNCH OF CATAPULTS/TREBS (at least half your stack should be seige. I wouldn't reccomend more than 75%, unless the city you are attacking has TONS of units, but 50%-75% should be sufficent) seem to work well. Pikes + Cross-bows also work well. However, the Horse Archer + Pikes are sitting ducks to Macemen/Axemen.
 
Actually, I'd suggest backing up even further from the trees, so you can see the forest.

The way to win Domination is not to try to conquer people early. Concentrate on your economy, build a machine that can support a friggin' huge military, plus your research is through the roof. Then, when you're ready to go on the offensive, you have superior units, plus you can afford to pay all the maintenance costs without a problem.

Wodan
 
Actually, I'd suggest backing up even further from the trees, so you can see the forest.

The way to win Domination is not to try to conquer people early. Concentrate on your economy, build a machine that can support a friggin' huge military, plus your research is through the roof. Then, when you're ready to go on the offensive, you have superior units, plus you can afford to pay all the maintenance costs without a problem.

Wodan
Interesting. I have to assume that you speak from experience, that you've successfully achieved domination wins this way. I myself find that an early war is crucial to a domination win in several respects, mainly in obtaining the land required to achieve the exact advantages you describe. Without an early war, I quickly find myself hemmed in by the AI and restricted to one powerhouse city (the capital) and a small number of serviceable yet mediocre sites. Eliminating a rival, building a veteran army, and obtaining additional top-notch city sites is exactly how I set myself up to have a civilization that can grant me strategic and/or tactical advantages and support the burgeoning empire.
 
im gona go with Wodan on this one....once i was playing a lan game against my dad and 6 other ai's. i just sat back and teched,teched and teched some more. moment i got to future tech(this was warlords btw) i put the culture slider all the way. i had been builing mech infantry every now and then but moment i got ot future tech i built em in every city but 2(which made nukes :mischief: ) when i attacked shaka i had 500 mech infantry and like 50 nukes.....he died so fast :lol: then washington fell and when i went to cyrus(who was blocking off my dad) half way through his territory....i got a dom victory :D. so it is possible without having any wars until the very end of your tech.
 
First off, I did not say "never do an early war". Sorry if I gave that impression Sisiutil.

An early war, depending on map and start loc, can be essential. "We need breathing room!" (Star Trek, badly misquoting Earth, Hitler, 1938).

To me, there's a world of difference between having a modest early war to secure your initial empire, vs going for (or even building up for) a semi-early Domination win.

The OP mentioned such things as to lead me to believe he had a lot of unit maintenance, plus that he was focusing on steadily building up his armed forces.

What I'm trying to say is that yeah I may build 6 or 8 axes and go kick my neighbor's butt, but it's a rare game that I do anything more than that until the midgame. And by midgame I mean I have Currency, CoL, Engineering, and probably more.

Wodan
 
I only do one early war, to get rid of my closest rival and expand my land - usually with axes/swords. After that, I wait until medieval to clear my next rival on the continent - renaissance to take the last one(s), then wait until I have infantry/marines/artillery to take the fight overseas. If I peacemonger, I still take the first one out, so I can get enough land.
 
Ah, thanks for clarifying, Wodan. I play much the same way myself--unless I'm playing as Rome, in which case it just makes sense to keep on a-rollin' to maximize the usefulness of Praetorians. I'll use them to take out anywhere from 2 to 3 opponents before Cats show up. :lol:
 
To MikeUK:

It sounds like your original attack was fairly well executed, but then you overextended. It is not clear how many cities were involved with the Greeks, but the response suggests they had a fairly large infestation when you attacked.

When attacking a larger or closely matched AI, you have to know where their military resources (iron/copper/horses/elephants) are located and plan on pillaging or controlling them as quickly as possible. If you cannot pillage or control all those resources, you need to be prepared to grab one city and fortify it heavily to repel their assaults.

Example, if I have 3 cities and the AI has 2--crush and destroy with CR promoted axes.
Example, if I have 3 cities and the AI has 3 or more--build CR promoted axes, CI promoted axes, CG promoted archers, and combat I promoted pikeman (unless I know there are no horse resource in AI control). I send the CR axes and archers to take and garrison a strategic city while using stacks of pikeman and other axes to pillage the iron/copper/horses/elephants and roads. If I can, I steal their workers too. After the first few waves of AI attackers have been repelled and I have reduced the AIs troop options by pillaging resources, I start consolidating my stacks to take the remaining cities.

This type of war is very costly and you have to keep an eye on the sliders and plan on pillaging to offset the costs. I play on noble/normal map/normal speed/no tech trading and have been fairly successful.

Also, it is not clear if you had a tech advantage going into the war. I rarely start a war with a tech disadvantage unless I have no other choice. If I do have to, then I send all those useless warriors and other low level troops at the city first to hopefully soften the garrison up and reduce my military budget. During war, all cities build 100% military production.
 
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