How to add the Celts in Civilization?

[Vahnstad]

I was wondering how you would implement the Celts in the game (and should they make an appearance after all?).

I don't know what I should do, but I think it's likely I would create a multiple Celts leader pack or an Iceni and Gauls civilization, but i'm not really sure. How would you do it, and who would be leader?

 

[luigilime]

i onestly wouldn't mind a blob civilization with multiple leaders to represent the different tribes and their characteristics, out of all the leaders i presume the more feasible are boudicca and vercingetorix, one leader for the iceni in britain and one for the gauls in france

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I agree that the so called blob civilizations are good candidates for alternate leaders such as the Celts and Polynesia. Boudicca is an obvious choice and Vercingetorix as well. Surprised he wasn't one in Civ 4. Might be interesting having a leader from Ireland as well, but a name doesn't come to mind.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I really, really dislike 'blob' civilizations, because it means we have to either make up stuff from fragments because we don't have enough information, or 'lump' several very different sets of traits together from different geographic and temporal areas to make up a civilization. In most cases, we can do better.

Specifically, there was a fairly long discussion of Celtic Leaders elsewhere on this very Forum, but I think I can sum it up here:

1. The Celts can be the general Culture, which spread at once time or another from Ireland to modern Turkey, and included parts of the Balkans, central southern Germany, France, Spain, and northern Italy. Potential leaders include Boudicca of the Iceni in Britain, the Irish historical and mythological leaders like Brian Boru and Cuchulain, historical Celts like Brennus (two different men), Vercingetorix, Bituitis, or Divitiacus. The problem is, the cultural area is so large and diverse, and never remotely acted under a single capital or leader, that all the leaders are local and do not in any way represent all the diverse elements. On the other hand, this does encompass the maximum of all the Celtic traits: artistic and metalworking excellence, migrating invasions, fierce warriors, druidic philosophers, priests, politicians and diplomats, bards and bardic traditions, swordsmen, chariots, headhunting, tattooing and tartans. Lots to choose from, but no single set of traits/Uniques that will cover everything.

2. The 'Celts' can be specifically the Gauls centered in France, but 'spilling out' culturally into northern Italy, southern Germany, and Spain. The closest they ever came to being a Unified State was a few years under Vercingetorix, but they do seem to have had a fairly uniform set of 'cultural norms' including most of the traits listed above, and they were the only Celtic society that was a Civilization in game terms - in the few generations before the Roman Conquest of Gaul, they were starting build cities - Bibracte and Gergovia may have both approached 20,000 in population, making them very respectable Urban Concentrations in Ancient, Classical, or Medieval Eras.
Of course, choosing the Gauls means the choice of potential leaders is more limited - no Irish, Welsh, or Britons need apply - but it still leaves War Leaders like the first Brennus or Bituitis, a unifying Diplomatic/Military Leader like Vercingetorix, a Diplomatic/Negotiator Warleaders like (the 2nd) Brennus, or even a real, live Druid like Divitiacus - who could be philosophical, religious, diplomatic, or even scientific (after all, they did have Druidic Schools with a multi-year curriculum) take your Pict (who were from the Celtic margin in Northern Britain).

My own preference would be to concentrate on a Gallo-Celtic Civilization with, possibly, alternate Leaders of Vercingetorix and Divitiacus or (2nd) Brennus. The advantages are that you have leaders who can be pretty accurately defined by historical sources, a potential long list of City Names that are again, historical and not dated as late as the Renaissance, and a series of fairly well-known traits from which Uniques can be derived:
Improvement - Oppidum which were at once Fortifications, Religious Centers, and Trade Nodes
Building - Druidic School
Military Unit - Gaesati Fanatics, Soldurii ('oathsworn') Swordsmen, Gallic Cavalry, even chariots until the beginning of the 'Roman' period.
Institutions - Druidic priest/learned class, accurately-measured and well-built roads (Roman Roads in Gaul were almost all built on existing Celtic foundations, including paving), Astronomically-calculated Festivals and calendars, early adoption of mail armor and long swords (they invented both) and wheeled vehicles with well-built spoked wheels, yokes, and harness (the Latin words for all of these are borrowed from Celtic roots).

This also has the advantage that it leaves the Welsh, Britons, Irish, Scots, Picts, etc. 'available' to be developed as separate or alternative civilizations from the Celtic-Gallic.

 

[conorbebe]

If I had it my way, I’d add the Gauls lead by Vercingetorix. Why? Because although adding a blob “Celts” civ would allow for more diverse alternate leaders, so far it seems Firaxis isn’t going to be focusing on this in the future and leaving it up to the modding community. In that case, I’d rather have a more historically accurate civ officially in the game.

If people want to see Boudicca return, they can mod her in themselves as leader of the Iceni, like some modders did for Civ V. Same goes for the Polynesia vs Hawaii/Māori debate.

 

[Phrozen]

I would also like to mention that the Celts invented wooden coopered barrels which were a much better vessel for transporting pretty much anything than the ceramics that the Greeks, Romans, and the rest of the Mediterranean was using. They were lighter, repairable, and could be easily rolled without risking much damage to the vessels itself.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I would also like to mention that the Celts invented wooden coopered barrels which were a much better vessel for transporting pretty much anything than the ceramics that the Greeks, Romans, and the rest of the Mediterranean was using. They were lighter, repairable, and could be easily rolled without risking much damage to the vessels itself.

I didn't want to mention wooden barrels as specifically Celtic because, while the Romans definitely got the technology from the Celts, Herodotus also mentions wooden 'casks' used to ship (olive) oil from Greece to the Near East a couple of centuries earlier than the Romans adopted barrels. Other sources have the 'modern' hooped concave-sided wooden barrel originating in northern Germany, but the evidence is fragmentary. I regard the exact origin as still open, although it is certain that the Celtic Gauls were using wooden barrels for at least a century or more before the Romans 'borrowed' the idea in the 2nd century BCE, which puts their use pretty close to Herodotus' time - possibly both the Greeks and the Romans borrowed it from the Celts, but I don't think that can be proven yet.
As you mention, thought, the wooden cask completely replaced the massive pottery/ceramic Amphorae that had been the bulk shipping container of the Greco-Roman world, because it was so much more efficient, lighter, and easily moved between ship, shore, and other conveyance. Perhaps a Unique for Celts involving more return from each Trade Route, whether land or water-based?

 

[Siptah]

I agree that it would be best to drop the celts and have a gaul civ instead. First, I don't like blob civs that much, and we already have one with Scythia - which would have been hard to do without making a blob civ. For the celts it is possible to 'unblob' after many years of having them in that way. Second, the Gauls present the best way to do them because of comparably good leader choices and the chance for a city list. And anything is better than having Boudicca return anyway, even the nameless Prince of Glauberg....
But to be honest, I'd rather have another european iron age civ this time instead of a celtic one: the Goths/Visigoths/Ostrogoths. They offer a unique culture as well (just without druids - and less pop culture surrounding them) and have two supreme leader choices to choose from. Just don't portray them as 'enemies of...' only. And they would be a new addition.

 

[luigilime]

i agree with you all that it's not historically and culturally accurate to have a blob civ, however now more than ever they can sav themselves by having multiple leaders to represent the differences, since all the celtic peoples have more things in common than differences. a celts blob civ would actually make sense for once.

 

[Vahnstad]

The only problem is that they still have to do that. They can put the Celts in with only one leader. However in the Ed Beach Interview, they've said that they want to implement multiple leaders when they feel they're needed or there would be enough difference, while the modding community should do the majority of alternate leaders.

 

[conorbebe]

The only problem is that they still have to do that. They can put the Celts in with only one leader. However in the Ed Beach Interview, they've said that they want to implement multiple leaders when they feel they're needed or there would be enough difference, while the modding community should do the majority of alternate leaders.

And I wouldn’t put the Celts high on the priority scale when we have civs like France, Egypt, and India that so desperately need alternatives. Hence why I’d rather a Gauls civ, as I don’t see Firaxis releasing multiple Celtic leaders.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

And I wouldn’t put the Celts high on the priority scale when we have civs like France, Egypt, and India that so desperately need alternatives. Hence why I’d rather a Gauls civ, as I don’t see Firaxis releasing multiple Celtic leaders.

Let's be real. The reason civilizations like France, Egypt and India 'need' alternative leaders is that all of them have histories long enough that no one leader does more than scratch the surface of all the facets of the civilization. The fact is that placing so much emphasis on the traits of a single leader for a civilization of any duration is ridiculously limiting and therefore largely a marketing ploy: "You can play as Gandhi!" - which loses all of its meaning when you are actually 'playing as' Friedrich Barbarossa or Tomyris, neither of whom the majority of buyers/gamers would know from Myrtle McTurtle.

 

[Zaarin]

I for one am very strongly against a blob Celt civ. The Britons and Gauls were culturally similar, yes, and depending on what linguistic theories you accept they may have even spoken dialects of the same language (British is so scarcely attested compared to Gaulish that this particular theory is hard to prove or disprove). All that being said, however, I still don't want a blob Celtic civ. Let me elucidate:

1. The Gauls were a dozen times more significant than the Britons, yet odds are we'd get a British leader.
2. I'm sick of Boudicca. The historical Boudicca was a fascinating (if ultimately insignificant) woman, but civ Boudicca has consistently been an outlandish stereotype. If we absolutely must have a British woman lead the Celts, how about we retire Boudicca in favor of Cartimandua? I'm so tired of Boudicca I'll even accept the attested-only-in-Geoffrey-of-Monmouth Cordelia over her at this point.
3. The less specific the civ, the more stereotyped it's going to be. No more treehugging druids for me, thank you. Let's focus on what the Celts were actually known for: fine metalwork, aggressive raid-based warfare, and flexible social institutions.
4. Vercingetorix would tick the big personality box and wouldn't be yet-another-warrior-queen.
5. The Gaulish language, fragmentary as it is, is much better attested than Briton.
6. I do really want to see a Celtic civ--they are the obvious choice to represent Iron Age Europe. However, I don't need two Celtic leaders; one will do just fine.
7. If we need a second Celtic civ, forget the Britons; go with Medieval Ireland. (But I'm fine with the Irish being represented by Armagh, personally.)

 

[Zaarin]

I agree that it would be best to drop the celts and have a gaul civ instead. First, I don't like blob civs that much, and we already have one with Scythia - which would have been hard to do without making a blob civ. For the celts it is possible to 'unblob' after many years of having them in that way. Second, the Gauls present the best way to do them because of comparably good leader choices and the chance for a city list. And anything is better than having Boudicca return anyway, even the nameless Prince of Glauberg....
But to be honest, I'd rather have another european iron age civ this time instead of a celtic one: the Goths/Visigoths/Ostrogoths. They offer a unique culture as well (just without druids - and less pop culture surrounding them) and have two supreme leader choices to choose from. Just don't portray them as 'enemies of...' only. And they would be a new addition.

I don't see the Goths as a viable alternative to the Celts. Don't get me wrong, I want them, too: but the Celts populated most of Europe from Iberia to Austria even into Anatolia during the Iron Age. By the time the Goths showed up, the Continental Celts and the Britons had been thoroughly Romanized almost to the point of being indistinguishable, and the Gaels are another animal altogether. I think it would be malapropos to leave out the Celts, even if I don't care for their prior depictions. I'd still love to see the Goths, though; Theodoric the Great or Alaric I would both make great leaders.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I don't see the Goths as a viable alternative to the Celts. Don't get me wrong, I want them, too: but the Celts populated most of Europe from Iberia to Austria even into Anatolia during the Iron Age. By the time the Goths showed up, the Continental Celts and the Britons had been thoroughly Romanized almost to the point of being indistinguishable, and the Gaels are another animal altogether. I think it would be malapropos to leave out the Celts, even if I don't care for their prior depictions. I'd still love to see the Goths, though; Theodoric the Great or Alaric I would both make great leaders.

Pardon for starting a bit from the Celtic Origins of this thread, but the Goths require a bit of comment.

First, they are entirely separate in language, culture, and influence from the Celts or Gauls. On the other hand, while the Celtic Gauls are a well-defined, separate and distinct and singular civilization in every respect (culture, scientific achievements, military system, uniques, etc) the Goths are possibly one of the groups of the Ancient/Classical period that cry out for distinctly different Leaders, since the Goths themselves divided into two distinctly different groups: The Ostrogoths and Visigoths.

And IF the Civ Powers-That-Be ever want to do a Fall of Rome Scenario, one or both of the Gothic 'Civs' is almost a requirement: the Visigoths not only took over Italy from the moribund Western Empire, but both Gothic groups provided, between them, a large percentage of the Late Roman army! When the same groups are on both sides of a war, it's really hard to turn the war into a game without them...

 

[Karpius]

When one speaks of a 'people' rather than a specific nation (such as France, England, Brazil, etc) then one is speaking in only the broadest terms and hence a 'blob' civilization. But perhaps that should be the focus of the game? Must we equate the term 'civilization' to a specific political entity? Can we view France and England as stand alone civilizations, or are they more appropriately part of European civilization?

In game terms, I believe any criteria for including another opponent for the human player, or another vehicle for the human player to 'play', is perfectly fine. For me, it is less about gender or historical accuracy than it is about broad appeal. The challenge for Firaxis is to meld historical accuracy with playability in a game that at its core is not truly representative of history. For the most, I believe they have been fairly successful.

To have a 'blob' Celt civilization would be quite fine along with a 'blob' Goth civilization. Only in the broadest sense do these terms represent the many tribes, kingdoms, and so forth that historians have rightly or wrongly lumped under these general terms. Each 'blob' can offer up quite the array of leaders that represent many different era and modes of governance.

There is also great appeal to breaking them down into their more specific (but not entirely un-blob-like) groups. For the Celts, we can run the gamut from Irish, Picts, Scots, Britons, Iberians, Basques, and even Estruscans and other early tribes of the Italian peninsula. The name Goth is very ancient and was used to depict a number of different tribes that were not always Germanic/Nordic in origin. As Ostrogoths and Visigoths moved throughout Europe, they picked up many different tribes along their way. They also diverged into other tribes such as Vandals and Lombards, establishing their own short lived kingdoms. In the end, much like the Celts, the various Gothic groups were assimilated by the people in the lands they conquered and contributed to the ethnogenesis of groups such as the Spaniards, Slavs and even some influence into Romanian blood.

For our game, we can use history in the broadest sense, or narrow it down to details. Either way, I know will enjoy it.

 

[Uberfrog]

I'd really like this to be the end of the blobbed Celts, and a specific feature for the Gauls. I've had a few thoughts below (based on some of the ideas in this thread). To be honest, you could probably switch Vercingetorix out for Boudicca, rename Gaul to Britons and get something that fits much better than Civ V's nonsense (if you rename the cities and give her a chariot UU).

The Gauls - Vercingetorix

Capital: Gergovia
The main oppidum (fortified town) of the Arverni tribe, of whom Vercingetorix was the chief. Other major oppida from across Gaul will be in the city list: Bibracte, Alesia, Avaricum, etc...

Spoiler :

Unique Ability - Celtic Metalwork. Iron, Copper and Silver resources provide +culture and +gold

Spoiler Detail from a torc found in the Vix grave in northern Burgundy :

The Gauls, and Celtic culture in general since the Halstatt Period were famed for the quality of their metalwork. A boost from these resources should help them net enough early faith to get a Pantheon and churn out a few Druids.

Unique Unit - Druid. Religious unit available with Mysticism. Replaces the Guru. Purchasable with Faith from a Holy Site (does not require a Temple or Shrine). Can use a charge (2) to heal neighbouring Religious and Combat units. Can be expended next to a City-State city to grant an Envoy (max. once per era, per city-state).

Druids were not tree-hugging hippies, but important religious, and political leaders that could reportedly stop warring tribes even after their battle lines were drawn. This is too multi-faceted a system to do justice with as a Civ trait, but Druids are too important an aspect of Gallic and wider culture to leave out. The new Guru unit is a good candidate for them to replace, as they were supposed to practice some medicine. I like the idea of them as an earlier unit that can bolster your armies in the field. In addition, they synergise with Vercingetorix's leader ability in allowing you to get onside with City-States early to use to your advantage.

Spoiler :

The real spoiler is of course that you can hardly find a depiction of a Druid on Google that isn't some Victorian neopagan creation, or various hooded figures loitering around Stonehenge. White robes would probably do the trick, and maybe a carnyx player for good measure

Unique Building - Oppidum. Replaces the Ancient Walls. As well as the city defense boost, provides +2 production if the city is built on a hill. Provides a free Trading Post and +1 Faith. Appears free of charge in any city centre built on a hill.

Oppida (certainly when compared to smaller hill forts or dùns) are not really best represented as improvements, but as cities in their own right with strong fortifications. I wanted to add an incentive for Gaul to build their cities on hills, which isn't generally a smart idea in Civ VI - hence the production boost. The resulting city graphic should show a combination of natural fortification and imposing gates walls and guard towers.

Spoiler Walls of an oppidum :

Leader Bonus - Gaul United. Gains a free melee combat unit for each City-State they are the suzerain of when war is declared on Gaul, and can levy allied city-state units without cost. Can build the Soldurii unique unit, replacing the Swordsman.

Leader Unique Unit - Soldurii. Replaces the Swordsman. Pillaging costs no movement points, and can pillage friendly tiles (no yield gain).

Spoiler Gallic Nobleman :

Soldurii was the name of a group of elite bodyguards of the Gallic nobility described by Caesar. While the general Gallic infantry would have been unarmoured Gaestati armed with spears and javelins, the elite and nobility wore armour and were armed with fine iron swords. Vercingetorix pursued a scorched earth even on the defensive, depriving the Roman legions of land to turn against the Gauls.

Agenda - Enemy of Caesar. Warmonger penalties for neighbouring civs is increased. Happy to make alliances with neighbouring civs, or those he shares no borders with. Competitive for city-state suzerainty on his own continent.

Everyone likes an underdog, and Vercingetorix would be an impressive figure indeed. Uniting the various Gallic tribes for an ill-fated defense against Julius Caesar, Vercingetorix's Gaul should be a civ you think twice about declaring war on, between his fortified cities and free units from allied city states.

Of course no pop-culture representation of a Gallic civ would be complete without trouser-wearing moustachioed swordsman, and the soldatii (the Roman term for a particular group of elite bodyguards) fit the bill. You could probably throw in a carnyx player for good measure.

His agenda is essentially a very pragmatic one - a souped up version of Paranoid where he really doesn't like neighbours getting too big for their boots. If you do not do this, or you're on the other side of the world, he is very happy to be your ally.

 

[Siptah]

Nice idea @Uberfrog, but I think the Oppidum is a bit weak. I don't think I would build it that often for just the 2 extra production (needles to say that not all my cities are on hills).

 

[Zaarin]

@Uberfrog I like it, but I'd replace the druid with a unique spearman or chariot, and I'd make the oppidum a unique encampment personally.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Hoorah! An intelligent and informed version of the Gauls, for a change. Just a few 'tweaks' if I may...

The Gauls - Vercingetorix

Capital: Gergovia
The main oppidum (fortified town) of the Arverni tribe, of whom Vercingetorix was the chief. Other major oppida from across Gaul will be in the city list: Bibracte, Alesia, Avaricum, etc...

Spoiler :

Unique Ability - Celtic Metalwork. Iron, Copper and Silver resources provide +culture and +gold

The Gauls, and Celtic culture in general since the Halstatt Period were famed for the quality of their metalwork. A boost from these resources should help them net enough early faith to get a Pantheon and churn out a few Druids.

Another feature of Celtic metalwork was Innovation: they appear to have 'invented' the long iron sword and mail armor, both of which were adopted by the Romans from them. I would add, then, that the Gauls have 'automatic' Eurekas for Mining, Bronze Working and Ironworking.

[/SPOILER]

I have to disagree here. Recent investigations of the Oppidum sites in France (see The Discovery of Middle Earth: Mapping the Lost World of the Celts by Graham Robb) has discovered that the majority of the sites had no indications of much permanent population. On the other hand, Robb argues for them being religious, refuge, and trade nodes. My suggestion:

Unique Improvement - Oppidum. Available with Iron Working. Can be built on any Hill tile (including Grassland, Plains, Forest, Rain Forest, or Desert). Provides + 2 Defense Strength to any unit in the tile, + 1 Faith, and any Trade Route passing through an Oppidum adds +1 Gold per turn to the Gallic Civilization. Built by a Builder (1 charge)

Leader Bonus - Gaul United. Gains a free melee combat unit for each City-State they are the suzerain of when war is declared on Gaul, and can levy allied city-state units without cost. Can build the Soldatii unique unit, replacing the Swordsman.

Leader Unique Unit - Soldatii. Replaces the Swordsman. Pillaging costs no movement points, and can pillage friendly tiles (no yield gain).

Spoiler Gallic Nobleman :

Soldatin was a name of a group of elite bodyguards of the Gallic nobility described by Caesar. While the general Gallic infantry would have been unarmoured Gaestati armed with spears and javelins, the elite and nobility wore armour and were armed with fine iron swords. Vercingetorix pursued a scorched earth even on the defensive, depriving the Roman legions of land to turn against the Gauls.

The Gallic unit in question was the Soldurii, and you are exactly right that Caesar and others describes them as the 'bodyguards', or more accurately, the Personal Retinue of a Gallic chief. What they were good at was a ferocious charge, frequently from cover and with no warning, accompanied by showers of javelins, and being able to move much faster than the Roman Legions could through rough or wooded country. I suggest their 'special characteristics' would be:

Has the Ranger Promotion. Receives +7 Combat Strength if attacking from any Hill or Forest Tile (Not cumulative)

Again, I like your basic ideas for the Gallic Celts. IF we could get Firaxis to do them right for a change, the 2nd Leader for them could be (in order of my preference, anyway):

Divitiacus - a Druid In Charge - diplomatic, religious and possibly Scientific-leaning for a complete change from what everybody thinks they 'know' about the Gauls.

Brennus - there are actually two, but they share a propensity for thorough Pillaging and leading Migrations of warriors to harass their neighbors, which would certainly make their vicinity exciting on the game map!