How to build a wide empire?

[FridoDiamond]

Even if I try to be "wide" I never found more than 4-5 cities, do you have any advice? Which civ is better for a wide empire?

 

[Crafty Bison]

Some civs (non-exhaustive) that can do wide/ICS well (were you distinguishing between the two?):
Maya
France
Spain
Rome
Russia
Carthage
Byzantium
Arabia

Others (non-exhaustive) where a wide strategy provides certain bonuses:
Inca
Persia
Ethiopia
Egypt
America
Netherlands

 

[Bamboocha]

I'd like to have some advice on it too. Especially the opening moves are really hard for me, since it's hard to juggle building settlers, troops to defend your empire and wonders with your limited hammers.

 

[Avatan]

I think wonder are a no-no with ICS.

But I do have some questions too regarding ICS. You are suppose to spend most of your time in light unhappiness, how do you not end up with a size 5 capital? Isn't that harmful for road connection money?
How do you survive money wise? With all the roads and shrines it must cost heaps, and I can't see how you would have enough citizen to exploit all the money resources?
Science must be hard to come by too right? Do to even bother with library?

I really want to try but can't wrap my head around it!

Edit: phone.

 

[black213]

I think wonder are a no-no with ICS.

But I do have some questions too regarding ICS. You are suppose to spend most of your time in light unhappiness, how do you not end up with a size 5 capital? Isn't that harmful for road connection money?
How do you survive money wise? With all the roads and shrines it must cost heaps, and I can't see how you would have enough citizen to exploit all the money resources?
Science must be hard to come by too right? Do to even bother with library?

I really want to try but can't wrap my head around it!

Edit: phone.

A wide empire doesn't necessarily mean the same as ICS.

ICS = plopping cities everywhere and keeping them stagnated.

 

[Gamewizard]

I think wonder are a no-no with ICS.

But I do have some questions too regarding ICS. You are suppose to spend most of your time in light unhappiness, how do you not end up with a size 5 capital? Isn't that harmful for road connection money?
How do you survive money wise? With all the roads and shrines it must cost heaps, and I can't see how you would have enough citizen to exploit all the money resources?
Science must be hard to come by too right? Do to even bother with library?

I really want to try but can't wrap my head around it!

Edit: phone.

When I play wide on immortal or emperor with standard settings on continents I like to place my cities with the minimum spaces in between, which is 3. I don't necessarily build my second, third, fourth cities next to my capital first, but instead place them further out to grab good resources and river tiles, and then later fill in the not so good spots closer to the capital. The luxury resources will provide happiness for growth or gold if they are extra copies. The river tiles will provide gold to maintain a military and build infrastructure.

Because you are wide you should be able to grab a good religion with some happiness beliefs (Ceremonial burial, pagodas, asceticism, etc). This extra happiness allows you to fill in on those not so great city spots, but because the cities are all close together, those new cities can grab some of the improved tiles that the established cities are using, and then those cities switch to production or specialists, slowing growth for them but allowing the new cities to grow. Some players might not like this level of tile/specialist micro-management but it is necessary for this strategy.

As for the questions in the quote, trade route income is mostly decided by the city being connected to the capital, not the other way around. So if you are building at the 3 tile minimum spacing, once a city is 3 pop it can be connected to cancel out the road maintenance. Every pop point after is +1 gold.

As for science you will likely be a little behind early on until you hit universities. Once unlocked, build them ASAP in your larger pop cities and then work the scientist slots. I also don't chop jungle tiles but instead tradepost them. These are good to work after universities as well. Also once you get a spy put it in the largest capital you know of...hopefully you can steal a tech in under 15 turns.

 

[Avatan]

When I play wide on immortal or emperor with standard settings on continents I like to place my cities with the minimum spaces in between, which is 3. I don't necessarily build my second, third, fourth cities next to my capital first, but instead place them further out to grab good resources and river tiles, and then later fill in the not so good spots closer to the capital. The luxury resources will provide happiness for growth or gold if they are extra copies. The river tiles will provide gold to maintain a military and build infrastructure.

Because you are wide you should be able to grab a good religion with some happiness beliefs (Ceremonial burial, pagodas, asceticism, etc). This extra happiness allows you to fill in on those not so great city spots, but because the cities are all close together, those new cities can grab some of the improved tiles that the established cities are using, and then those cities switch to production or specialists, slowing growth for them but allowing the new cities to grow. Some players might not like this level of tile/specialist micro-management but it is necessary for this strategy.

As for the questions in the quote, trade route income is mostly decided by the city being connected to the capital, not the other way around. So if you are building at the 3 tile minimum spacing, once a city is 3 pop it can be connected to cancel out the road maintenance. Every pop point after is +1 gold.

As for science you will likely be a little behind early on until you hit universities. Once unlocked, build them ASAP in your larger pop cities and then work the scientist slots. I also don't chop jungle tiles but instead tradepost them. These are good to work after universities as well. Also once you get a spy put it in the largest capital you know of...hopefully you can steal a tech in under 15 turns.

Thanks for the great answer!
So religion is kind of necessary for this strategy, that's interesting. Religion will be easier to grab with a wide empire, but a nice faith generating pantheon might still be necessary. Messenger of the god might not be a valid choice then on immortal, except with a theology beeline.
The rivers might just do the trick yes. I'll guess I might just try out next! It will be refreshing after milking the tradition start to death.

And what VC might be the most suitable? Conquest I presume? Diplo too, but I am more reluctant to pursue it.

 

[Rooftrellen]

I tend to have the opposite problem, always going wide, though I admit I can't do ICS.

My mentality, if that helps you, is generally "well, I know I already have more cities than the AI and they'll hate me for making another city, but...that's a heck of a nice spot!" If you claim some resources, the city doesn't have to be too productive. Get a circus, a colosseum, and a +2 happiness bonus from religion (pagodas or the bonus to temples) and you are looking at a 6 pop city without any issues at all.

The trick with going wide (not ICS) is to pick good city locations. If you have flat desert with no resources in a 3 hex radius "circle," you still don't want a city in the middle of it. I don't know if I have ever settled a city 4 hexes away from another (minimum distance), just because you do need to make it worth the happiness hit, but minor unhappiness is perfectly fine. You might not want a 3 pop capital, but 5 or 6 is doable for some time, keeping in mind that you can start producing local happiness fairly early in the game and with liberty, you can get 1 global happiness per city connected to your capital, without even thinking of religion, which you should be able to get, going wide.

 

[Bamboocha]

Wrong thread, this post needs to be deleted.

 

[chazzycat]

my tips for wide empires:

1) pick the right civ and map. Civs with a strong early UB are good candidates (maya, ethiopia) as well as France, Russia, America, Arabia (all for different reasons). With regards to the map, you can't force it. If you are surrounded and don't have much room, or don't have a lot of unique luxes, it's not the right map to go wide. Because of this, I usually won't go into a game planning to go wide, more like hoping.

2) during the initial expansion phase, stick to cities with new unique luxes. For the most explosive growth, settle on top of the lux. That will save you a ton of turns over hooking up the lux with a worker, allowing you to keep expanding instead of going into negative happiness. Later once you have more of a happy buffer you can build some more cities not on luxes.

3) forget everything you've ever read about the national college. seriously, in all my best wide games, I haven't built the NC until like the industrial age.

4) get construction ASAP. coliseums and CBs for defense are both critical in a wide empire.

5) get an early religion with good happiness benefits. this has been covered already but is super important so I'm saying it again. Pagodas is the best IMO, but you want more than that to truly go wide. I try to get +4 happy per city from religion, but can live with 3. Don't overlook divine waters if you have lots of rivers. thats the only one that is instant, and speed is important. On immortal level, you probably need to go piety just to secure a good religion if you're playing with a non-religious civ. On emperor you can maybe skip that.

6) along the same lines, try to keep the happiness flowing ALWAYS. Happiness planning is extremely important in a wide empire...you're likely to be toeing the line, and any significant dip into negative happiness has very negative consequences for your economy and/or conquering sprees. it can be somewhat complicated but after you play a few wide games you start to get the feel for how things are timed. the crucial stretch is on the run-up to protectionism. Thats a huge boost but takes a while to get the culture. So you really want to stretch your religion to make sure its keeping you happy until you can get there. If you're not gonna make it, you can try a mercantile CS (find them in ADVANCE) go towards theaters (not always ideal) or try a wonder like ND. But on immortal wonders are risky, I never count on getting them as part of the strategy.

If you can pull this off, survive the inevitable DOWs, and have 10+ cities all growing tall, you'll soon find yourself reaping some serious benefits.

 

[DrZ]

Also keep in mind that religion works very well with a wide empire. The religious pressure system works best if you have a lot of cities. It also helps a lot with happiness, taking Ceremonial Burial for instance helps with a +1 Happiness / City!

 

[agonistes]

I just started playing Civ V again this weekend (played it for about a week when it came out, hated Steam, and uninstalled it), and I'm only playing on Prince.

I also have Gods and Kings installed.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'wide.'

Hope my tips help.


I find that Egypt and Austria have the largest advantages for building large empires. Egypt has the Burial Tomb - +2 happiness per city, and unlimited horse archers (although 2 is usually enough). Austria can buy city-states (a nearly game-breaking attribute).

edit: plus Egypt has a natural bonus for wonders.

Generally I go monument-shrine (for faith)-warrior-stonehenge. I use the policies for my first settler. Techs would be pottery-archery-calendar. I RACE to build stonehenge-pyramids-oracle. Forget building a settler with your capital until you have oracle, unless you have some free time to kill and it will only take 4-5 turns.

I don't race to get my religion, not always, but as there are less religions than civs, put some effort into it. Build shrines everywhere, until you are clearly dominating the game. edit: or not... current game I didn't rush shrines unless I needed food. Stonehenge and initial shrine will get u your religion fast enough

I don't bother with any 3-hex spacing. I settle cities in good spots, regardless of distance. I'm a resource hog. I may go 20 hexes to get to a good spot - although at 20 hexes I'd have a 3 unit escort.

The challenge is fending off barbarians, so build a mix of warriors/archers. Warriors to defend, warrior/archer combo to hunt down specific encampments, and a few extra archers for emergency support.

With Austria, I bought 2 city-states while I had only founded one city beyond my cap. Most civs were still at one city, now I had 4.
- early luxury trade for gold, cost u about 1k-2k per city state. I think I only ended up buying 3 before restarting, but the power to buy a city... jeez. U can policy settle, pop a settler, then buy a city-state (or 2) and the game is over. If Austria starts near a city-state, and on a river, game is over.

With Egypt, the Burial Tomb + Faith Purchase is 4 quick happiness.

For beliefs, I pick up a +happy building purchase, and +1 food in temples and shrines, for quicker growth. Also pick up tithes for gold.

Every city almost always builds a monument first.

I am very quick to bang purchase tiles. I'd rather have shields than food for non-core cities, until some basic buildings have been built.

Rule of thumb is, if it costs >10 turns to build a settler, build something else.

Policy Priorities:
1a) Faster/more policies (edit: hence oracle) - there are 2 early policies that speed up policy acquirement
1) Settler - one of these
2) Happiness - many. Look to commerce policies, and the first two trees.
3) Gold - all over. Reduction in road coast and free garrisoned troops are both big.
4) Culture - wonders and policies that increase culture are nice, particularly the % based ones. Grab wonders that do this too.
5) Resource increase - one policy does this. Industrial era I believe. If you want a large army, and u do, grab this.

There is also a policy that reduces tile cost (both in gold/culture). This is HUGE. GET IT.

Don't worry about war policies. Ranged attrition will smote thy foe. (Although if I was playing as a military civ, of course I'd grab some just for kicks - I only play Prince after all).

EDIT:

Happiness planning is extremely important in a wide empire

I've never NOT had a wide empire, so I don't know if happiness is ever NOT extremely important, but I absolutely agree with this. Happiness is hands down THE most important resource for your civ in V. That is why culture is so important: expand to grab more luxuries.

Try to view the game as a 'who can acquire the most happiness' the fastest race.

Oh, couple of great wonders I really really like: Hanging Gardens (for food), anything that gives 4+ happiness. Notre Dame is a good one to save an engineer for.

For free great peeps, ALWAYS grab the engineer.

For faith, once you have your religion, save for your happy buildings.

Thinks thats its for nowz. Hope it makes sense. Hope it works.

small edit: meant oracle, see above. Policies are nasty, so I invest in policies that grant policies faster, and try for the oracle. The pyramids are not necessary, but I don't usually build workers until later in the game (3 cities or more), and I just have a thing for the pyramids.

 

[Fluffball]

I usually play a wide game and some general strategies i use are:-

Plant your initial cities in spots with resources or in a spot which will lock off a chunk of land for yourself, where possible on or near a river so that you will gain more gold from riverside tiles.
In regard to resources they fulfill a double bonus, in the first case you get to control a lot of resources so you rely less on other civs for things you need and grabbing lots of resources means lots of resources you can sell.
Generally for luxuries you should aim to get as many different resources as possible to start with as this help counteract unhappiness from expansion but do remember that if you gain a second resource of the same type you can sell it and that would pay for a settler, or you could buy a settler, plant a city to get a luxury you already have, sell that luxury and get the gold back you spent on the settler.

In regard to what to build. I will usually have one or two cities which pump out units while the others build buildings in a normal build pattern. Usually i will aim to buy settlers at least and usually end up buying most/all of my units after the first couple as i am gathering up lots of resources to sell to fund my purchases.

If you see a spot, even quite far away, where you can plant a city and it will block of a chunk of territory.e.g. a peninsular or a mountain range with a small entry point then you should aim to plant a city there asap. Many games my first city after my capital has been placed in such a spot, sometimes even quite far away but then i have had a large chunk of land i can take my time settling as other civs cannot get there due to my city blocking the way(don't forget not to offer open borders to any close by civs at least or you can do and station troops to block the path as settlers cannot pass through military units.

If you haven't blocked off a chunk of land you should always aim to send at least an archer with a settler to act as defense for it and the city when it is built. Depending on the distances between my cities i usually have at least one archer for every city and a melee unit for each border city so they can hold out for at least a short time until i can rush reinforcements over. If a city is particularly vulnerable...aggressive neighbor and/or a good few turns of traveling away for reinforcements then i will station more melee as you can only place one archer in your city and well placed and fortified melee can generally hold out quite with the supporting fire of the city and archer.

The early danger will always be the threat of constant attack, especially as your expanding a lot which the AI don't like so you should always aim for a military that can fight at least 2 wars at once. This will be expensive but if you have expanded to grab lots of resources you will have lots to sell and due to having lots of cities will generate a lot of trade income from them when you connect them up.

Unhappiness will usually be your biggest stumbling block, both in creating and then growing cities.
If you are grabbing luxuries then this will help with expansion a lot in the early stages but you should also consider your social policies. I usually go for early honor as i will expect to be fighting a lot of wars and you also get happiness from garrisoning units. Your main way to counter unhappiness though will be buildings and you should try to beeline them asap and priorities building them.
When growing your cities you should prioritize growth as some are more worthwhile growing than others. If i have plentiful happiness i will grow all my cities, if i go below 15-20 happiness i will tend to shut down the growth of my filler cities. If go below 5-10 i will tend to shut down all but my main cities. Once i hit zero i will tend to shut down all growth, especially if i have puppets so i have a bit of flexibility before i start getting into serious unhappiness with negative effects which can happen quite quickly if you have a lot of puppets.

Generally i do tend to follow a basic ICS style in the sense that i try not to grow my filler cities past the size of the happiness they are producing but early game especially i break this rule a lot as more population equals more science and more gold so it is not usually until mid game where i tend to start restricting city sizes dependent on the happiness they produce although i often tend to find more difficulty in actually growing them and than holding them back so even in mid game i will tend to grow them above their produced happiness level if i have happiness buildings in the pipeline and some excess happiness to allow it so the happiness buildings will get straight to work as soon as they are built. It is only once i have access to all possible happiness, late game, that i will actually start to cap the sizes of cities

 

[dasnowflake]

the mayans are awesome but I have a hard time figuring out what to do multiplayer (1v1). when is a good time to start attacking?

 

[Crafty Bison]

Bear in mind that the 3 tile city spacing only applies for the first 10 cities you found, after which it's 4 tiles. If you're ICSing and left some unfilled spots for later, this can really scupper your shape!

For dasnowflake, my mp experience is limited, but as the maya you get cheap archers immediately. On 1v1, do it out the gate. Don't worry so much about taking cities, kill all units around it, stop them planting new cities, scouting, improving tiles and growing. Soon it'll be inevitable on 1v1. duel maps are all about domination, not growing wide or a science victory. You can do it earlier than the next man.