How to deal with siege? Flanking or counter-siege?

[Tephros]

Bring in the shock elephants, or a couple of shock axes followed by combat axes. The most important thing would be catching them in an open field. Horse archers can be used if they don't have spears or elephants. Siege isn't great for anything but attacking cities in the early game, unless you're korea. I suppose I'd sac a cat or two, but not five. Once the axes are taken care of, the best defenders are going to be the catapults themselves if you're in the open, and they're immune to collateral.

 

[Artichoker]

Even the AI will smack you with some collateral if you sit there and let it. So, even NON COMPETENT opposition is bad to defend against if they have siege.

...not if the defending is done properly (again, assuming an AI opponent).

The key is to use fewer units to minimize the effect of collateral damage, while making sure the tile defense has good bonuses, but doesn't risk economic loss (a non-city tile is ideal for this purpose).

 

[Trev]

A lot depends on your relative strength compared to theirs, for similar strengths, attack them on terrain with no defence bonus, this can be achieved sometimes by placing spear/axe stack on forest to encourage a detour onto plains, else if they take out your spear axe, they will have lost 3 units or so for your 2 anyway. An initial cat attack followed by some horses, followed by mopup axes works well usually.
If you are significantly weaker, leave an axe, spear and several archers in a city, when they capture it, immediately counterattack with swords, weakening stack with several cats first if needed. This way you may be able to recapture city, if not their losses will be higher than yours anyway, so future battles will favour you.

 

[Trev]

If you are aiming to recapture a city, do it on 2nd turn after the initial capture, 1st turn take out most defenders so they reinforce it, then take out all his stack 2nd turn.

 

[Artichoker]

A lot depends on your relative strength compared to theirs, for similar strengths, attack them on terrain with no defence bonus, this can be achieved sometimes by placing spear/axe stack on forest to encourage a detour onto plains, else if they take out your spear axe, they will have lost 3 units or so for your 2 anyway. An initial cat attack followed by some horses, followed by mopup axes works well usually.
If you are significantly weaker, leave an axe, spear and several archers in a city, when they capture it, immediately counterattack with swords, weakening stack with several cats first if needed. This way you may be able to recapture city, if not their losses will be higher than yours anyway, so future battles will favour you.

This has effectiveness that is similar to the non-city Fort method...except that the latter does not involve losing a city and the associated buildings.

The central idea of both methods is that the enemy's siege is wasted on the initial assault, making the enemy stack much weaker afterwards. Even though their initial assault succeeds, it's a Pyrrhic victory (for the enemy) since their losses in siege units are much more costly than your losses in defensive units.

 

[Artichoker]

A 3rd strategy is full out defense. If they do the 70-30 stack (30% being catapults), you could potentially defend their attack with enough numbers (usually about 20-30% more than them) and a high enough fortify bonus. If they do 50-50 you are screwed probably. Almost always you will need most of your units being fortified for 5 turns (+25%), and also be on a hill for another +25%, so you can use archers who are 6+ strength undamaged. They will make sure you don't get overwhelmed... they are strong defenders, they are cheap(greater numbers means less susceptible to catapults), they will at least damage say elephants, so in the 2nd assault, your healed and promoted units can defend the followup attack. The first strikes also help in making sure the enemy stack isn't too healthy for the next attack. There is almost always a followup attack, assuming you had enough units/production to have a chance of defending in the first place.

Of course with this 3rd strategy you have no ability to attack their stack. So they can postpone the attack and bring in more catapults. But if they do decide to attack, you will probably survive and inflict near equal casualties... or perhaps you'll get assistance from someone else, or get a tech to upgrade to muskets, whatever.
In this case you will want 3-6 catapults (assuming your stack is 25+) just to absorb collateral damage, not to attack with... unless perhaps they underestimated your defense strength, and you can counter attack and mop up some units.

You're forgetting the 4th strategy...limited defense. Limited defense is such that the size of each of your stacks is smaller than the number of units affected by collateral damage.

The key to making limited defense effective is to use many small stacks that have strong defensive ability. It doesn't matter that the enemy has siege in this case, since the collateral damage done against your small stacks is so small that it's insignificant compared to the defensive bonuses gained by your defensive units.

With proper geography, enemy units can be lured into attacking your small stacks.

 

[Artichoker]

You're forgetting the 4th strategy...limited defense. Limited defense is such that the size of each of your stacks is smaller than the number of units affected by collateral damage.

The key to making limited defense effective is to use many small stacks that have strong defensive ability. It doesn't matter that the enemy has siege in this case, since the collateral damage done against your small stacks is so small that it's insignificant compared to the defensive bonuses gained by your defensive units.

With proper geography, enemy units can be lured into attacking your small stacks.

It's even possible to extend this idea even further by creating a system of arranging the small stacks for defense...this is what I call the Moving Caterpillar Defense


The Moving Caterpillar Defense

1) Total units consist of 6 Longbowmen, 1 Catapult, and 1 Spearman

2) No more than 2 Longbowmen per stack

3) Each stack is located either horizontally or vertically adjacent to another stack

4) Optionally, you can add 2 more Longbowmen for a total of 4 stacks


Arrangement of Stacks

X = own stack
O = enemy stack
- = empty tile


3-Stack Scheme

-O-
XXX


4-Stack Scheme

-OX
XXX

 

[Artichoker]

The Moving Caterpillar Defense

1) Total units consist of 6 Longbowmen, 1 Catapult, and 1 Spearman

2) No more than 2 Longbowmen per stack

3) Each stack is located either horizontally or vertically adjacent to another stack

4) Optionally, you can add 2 more Longbowmen for a total of 4 stacks


Arrangement of Stacks

X = own stack
O = enemy stack
- = empty tile


3-Stack Scheme

-O-
XXX


4-Stack Scheme

-OX
XXX

In case you haven't guessed yet, the Moving Caterpillar Defense gets its name from how the stacks are moved in response to the enemy stack's movement. Taking advantage of the movement bonus of roads, your own stacks can be moved in such a way to prevent the enemy stack's progress, unless the enemy decides to attack one of your stacks.

The beauty of this strategy is that the 6 Longbowmen, 1 Catapult, and 1 Spearman invested into defensive stacks can be transformed into an offensive stack, once the moment is ripe for a counterattack.

You have the option of moving each stack to the next adjacent tile, or (if you have Engineering) moving a stack at one end of the Caterpillar to the opposite end. The advantage of the latter method is that the middle stacks accumulate their fortify bonus while remaining stationary.

If the enemy stack decides to delay and wait for reinforcements, you have option of adding additional stacks, each with a size of 2 Longbowmen. If the number of stacks you deploy grows to 8, you will be able to encircle the enemy stack, forcing the enemy to attack one of your stacks in order to free its own stack.


The effectiveness of this strategy depends on building an elaborate network of roads to connect your defensive tiles. Defensive bonuses can be gained from either hills, forests, rivers, or forts. Unforested hills are probably best served by adding a Fort to gain cumulative defensive bonuses for your Longbowmen.

 

[vicawoo]

And then the caterpillar turns to moths when you upgrade to gunships? Pesky moths? Is Attacko reading this?

I've thought about doing something like this, the question is it more effective to force a lot of small fights, and how many units can you make them lose against big stacks. I think the best stack of 2 would be 2 fortified longbows in a forested hill fort, one promoted city garrison, the other drill promoted.

 

[UncleJJ]

A thread on siege weapons made me consider this idea: perhaps siege are not overpowered, but rather perhaps their counter (flanking) is underpowered.

Let's say you find yourself in an late-early game war (catapults, spears, axes, swords, horse archers). You see an average late-early game SoD coming at you (6 CR2 cats, 2 spears (one medic, one c2), 2 shock axes, and 6 CR2 swords). How do you deal with this SoD?

That is a pretty mean stack to defend against. Normally I would try to use a walled city as the basis of my defence, trying to buy time to assemble a counter attacking force, but the 6 cats would reduce the defences in 2 turns and the CR2 promotions on the cats and swords would then make that city tough to defend.

I agree with Tephros, if I knew that SoD was coming my way:

Bring in the shock elephants, or a couple of shock axes followed by combat axes. The most important thing would be catching them in an open field. Horse archers can be used if they don't have spears or elephants. Siege isn't great for anything but attacking cities in the early game, unless you're korea. I suppose I'd sac a cat or two, but not five. Once the axes are taken care of, the best defenders are going to be the catapults themselves if you're in the open, and they're immune to collateral.

The best defencive force is based on axes as they can not only defeat all the units (after taking care of the shock axes) but are cheap and get lots of exp points. Any of your axes that win will instantly get a useful promotion and hence be quickly healed. If you are Aggressive then they can be shock axes or combat2 otherwise make do with combat1 axes. A stack of about 10 axes and a couple of cats should be able to defeat that attacking stack in a hammer efficient way. Each nearby city can do the 2 pop axe whip trick whereby 2 pop are turned into 2 axes in 3 turns.

 

[Skallagrimson]

And then the caterpillar turns to moths when you upgrade to gunships? Pesky moths? Is Attacko reading this?

ROFL!

I've thought about doing something like this, the question is it more effective to force a lot of small fights, and how many units can you make them lose against big stacks. I think the best stack of 2 would be 2 fortified longbows in a forested hill fort, one promoted city garrison, the other drill promoted.

Definitely many small fights are better than one big fight *IF* the AI tilted the balance of his force to the extreme in favor of siege (which they often do when on the assault).

My add-on to the caterpillar defense is to have horse archers at the ready for a full-out slaughter once the AI's non-siege units are weakened enough for them to survive, thus, flanking makes short work of the rest. In essence, the multi-stacks make the AI lean more in favor of sending non-siege out to battle, which in turn weakens those units even if they win, thus, eventually the opportunity opens up for horses to finish the rest.

 

[oyzar]

You're forgetting the 4th strategy...limited defense. Limited defense is such that the size of each of your stacks is smaller than the number of units affected by collateral damage.

The key to making limited defense effective is to use many small stacks that have strong defensive ability. It doesn't matter that the enemy has siege in this case, since the collateral damage done against your small stacks is so small that it's insignificant compared to the defensive bonuses gained by your defensive units.

With proper geography, enemy units can be lured into attacking your small stacks.

The enemy will just ignore your small stacks and/or raze your cities, levgree was certainly not talking about stupid AI combat .

 

[Skallagrimson]

The enemy will just ignore your small stacks and/or raze your cities, levgree was certainly not talking about stupid AI combat .

Non-AI wouldn't send a CR stack of 90% cats.

 

[Artichoker]

The enemy will just ignore your small stacks and/or raze your cities, levgree was certainly not talking about stupid AI combat .

Not easily done if the territory is in my cultural boundaries.

The major flaw in your argument is that since siege units have a movement of 1, they will never be able to successfully go around a set of 3 small stacks without attacking one of them. If there are 4 small stacks, it will even be harder.

 

[Bibor]

EDIT: Reply to the original post, not to comments.

Although I don't usually comment on forums, I must comment on this one.
I associate "Underpowered" and "Overpowered" are World of Warcraft terms, or at least I associate them with that game... terms followed by an endless pointless discussion about which feature of the game (in this case - units) beats which.

Thank god, in Civilization there are multiple solutions to every single encounter and simply every single detail counts.
Is the defending SoD on hill or on forest?
Can you force the stack to advance over a river?
Do units inside have special terrain defense bonuses (Woodsman etc.)?
Does the stack feature a healer General (Medic3, Woodsman 3)?
Are all the units inside the stack at full health?
Do you have any advanced technologies and/or abilities to counter the stack (for example knights who are immune to first strikes)?
Are your units upgraded enough to overcome or match defending unit bonuses? If yes, are they worth sacrificing?
How fast can you produce and move new counter units into position and how upgraded will they be?
Do you or the opponent have wonders that affect the situation (Chichen Itza)?
Can the conflict be resolved peacefully (by attacking and capturing a city of the same enemy and trading for peace?
Is your land farmed or cottaged - does pillaging (letting enemy come to city) hurt and how much?
Do you have enough defensive units or more offensive ones?
Can the enemy take advantage of your defensive decision and pillage your only source of iron and/or horses?

There are literally hundreds of questions one can ask about how to deal about an attacking enemy force. Reducing it to an ABC answer scheme is not CIV-like at all.

 

[Artichoker]

And then the caterpillar turns to moths when you upgrade to gunships? Pesky moths? Is Attacko reading this?

I've thought about doing something like this, the question is it more effective to force a lot of small fights, and how many units can you make them lose against big stacks. I think the best stack of 2 would be 2 fortified longbows in a forested hill fort, one promoted city garrison, the other drill promoted.

Dont forget the river !

I've seen impressive results when using the small-stack strategy, especially against siege. What happens is the AI burns its siege against the defensive units. Whether it attacks with Catapults or other units is not that important, though. With this type of defense, the small collateral damage done by a Catapult makes it about equal to a non-siege attacker of the era.

It looks like you have a powerful combo there with City Garrison/Drill for the two longbowmen. With the Moving Caterpillar Strategy, however, you may need to consider the defensive bonuses of the tiles you will be moving to later. If you have enough workers (or perhaps Serfdom) to build Forts on many tiles, then City Garrison may indeed be the best.

Guerilla is an alternative to City Garrison that you might consider. A hilled tile with a fort will give the inherent hill/city bonuses of the longbowmen, and also the Guerilla bonus. The advantage with Guerilla, however, is that you can mount an effective defense on hilled tiles without building a Fort.

But the choice of Drill for the 2nd longbowman seems like a lock. The reduction of collateral damage from higher levels of Drill appears to be made exactly for this purpose. When counterattacking, Drill is also valuable as well.

ROFL!



Definitely many small fights are better than one big fight *IF* the AI tilted the balance of his force to the extreme in favor of siege (which they often do when on the assault).

My add-on to the caterpillar defense is to have horse archers at the ready for a full-out slaughter once the AI's non-siege units are weakened enough for them to survive, thus, flanking makes short work of the rest. In essence, the multi-stacks make the AI lean more in favor of sending non-siege out to battle, which in turn weakens those units even if they win, thus, eventually the opportunity opens up for horses to finish the rest.

 

[Artichoker]

And then the caterpillar turns to moths when you upgrade to gunships? Pesky moths? Is Attacko reading this?

I've thought about doing something like this, the question is it more effective to force a lot of small fights, and how many units can you make them lose against big stacks. I think the best stack of 2 would be 2 fortified longbows in a forested hill fort, one promoted city garrison, the other drill promoted.

Dont forget the river !

I've seen impressive results when using the small-stack strategy, especially against siege. What happens is the AI burns its siege against the defensive units. Whether it attacks with Catapults or other units is not that important, though. With this type of defense, the small collateral damage done by a Catapult makes it about equal to a non-siege attacker of the era.

It looks like you have a powerful combo there with City Garrison/Drill for the two longbowmen. With the Moving Caterpillar Strategy, however, you may need to consider the defensive bonuses of the tiles you will be moving to later. If you have enough workers (or perhaps Serfdom) to build Forts on many tiles, then City Garrison may indeed be the best.

Guerilla is an alternative to City Garrison that you might consider. A hilled tile with a fort will give the inherent hill/city bonuses of the longbowmen, and also the Guerilla bonus. The advantage with Guerilla, however, is that you can mount an effective defense on hilled tiles without building a Fort.

But the choice of Drill for the 2nd longbowman seems like a lock. The reduction of collateral damage from higher levels of Drill appears to be made exactly for this purpose. When counterattacking, Drill is also valuable as well.

ROFL!



Definitely many small fights are better than one big fight *IF* the AI tilted the balance of his force to the extreme in favor of siege (which they often do when on the assault).

My add-on to the caterpillar defense is to have horse archers at the ready for a full-out slaughter once the AI's non-siege units are weakened enough for them to survive, thus, flanking makes short work of the rest. In essence, the multi-stacks make the AI lean more in favor of sending non-siege out to battle, which in turn weakens those units even if they win, thus, eventually the opportunity opens up for horses to finish the rest.

This would be a good demonstration of the Flanking ability. Another variation is to mix in Crossbowmen with the Longbowmen, perhaps using 1 Longbowman+1 Crossbowman per stack. This would be used in cases where there opponent is heavy on melee units.

 

[oyzar]

Not easily done if the territory is in my cultural boundaries.

The major flaw in your argument is that since siege units have a movement of 1, they will never be able to successfully go around a set of 3 small stacks without attacking one of them. If there are 4 small stacks, it will even be harder.

Well attacking your small stacks isn't really a problem either unless you have vastly superior units, but i guess if you do have favourable terrain(forts all over the place) it could be possible to defend like this(however if you have forts all over the place you wouldn't have any tiles to work...).

 

[CivCorpse]

The problem witht the catepillar defense is that all the stacks may not be on defensive bonus terrain. The one that isn't becomes the weak link in the chain. If you have 6 longbows available they are better used in the threatened city. If the AI has an SOD capable of defeating 6 fortified CG longbows in a city then your little 2 lb stacks aren't going to hinder them at all. In that situation it is better to hunker down and use the one cat you have for your catepillar as a suicide unit at the last moment.

 

[Skallagrimson]

The problem witht the catepillar defense is that all the stacks may not be on defensive bonus terrain. The one that isn't becomes the weak link in the chain. If you have 6 longbows available they are better used in the threatened city. If the AI has an SOD capable of defeating 6 fortified CG longbows in a city then your little 2 lb stacks aren't going to hinder them at all.

Ideally you don't have to picket out flat land, of course. On flat land though, there is often the option of using rivers as the defensive bonus, depending on how you're able to arrange it. If you can pick a valley where the flat area is river-defended, and the flanks are hills and/or woods, you've got a Battle of Thermopylae just waiting on the arrival of Kashayer Shah.