Jeckel
Great Reverend
I've never taken any programming classes, but I've softcoded on mushes and muds for about 6 years, creating various systems from character creation to weather and I've found that first you need a generic concept that can be stated in a sentance or three that gives the basic idea of the mod.
"DnD Mod is a small mod that limits civs to 12 hero units and one city and pits them against each other and the wandering barbarian monsters."
Once you have that you need to determine what areas need to be modded. By the above DnD example, need new unit graphics and decide if unit limiting can be done in xml or python.
When you have these two things my advice is to jump in and start messing with the code. Afterall the worst that can happen is a game crash, just remember to keep back up copies or some sort of record of what you change so you know where to look for errors.
This is a good point. The example pilliaging criminal is empty and almost just annoying because it has no real effect. It needs to have some sort of impact on a game. The player needs to interact with it in some way. Even if the effect is "bad" and it makes the player "angry" that is better then indifferense and bordem and its often that angering aspect that keeps you playing for hours and hours. Like, how bout if your city had X unhappy people for Y turns, then Z population would leave your city as Riot units and begin pillaging the squares around the city and any that are killed won't return to the city after N turns of rioting. This then has function, if you don't keep your city happy or policed then it will be negatively effected, and also fluff, instead of numbers being changed behind the scenes there are onscreen actions that can be seen. On top of that it has a way for direct player actions to effect the outcome, ie they can attack the Riot units and destory them or just gaurd specific resourses limiting or even nulifing the pillage effect.
It goes back to what has been said about System vs. Feature, a feture generally have a very liner cause => effect stucture(unhappyness => criminal unit => tile or two pillaged), where as a system tends to have multiple causes, effects, and sideeffects(unhappyness and unhealthyness taken into acount for spawning, decisions given to player, outcomes variety and interactable).
I both agree and disagree with complexity in mods. Take FfH, or any of the other mods that rewrite the game, these are very complex and intricate endevors and many many people take on the learning curve above and beyond the basic Civ4 for one because it is well done and exicuted. Its basic premise required alot of complexity, that complexity required alot of time, and the production team put that time into it. If these points are met then complex mods are fine.
On the flip side many complex mods don't require the complexity or the modders didn't put in the need time and in these situations it doesn't work out well. These leads back to designing before modding, laying out what needs to be done and what doesn't and how that translates into code.
Now it is good advise to start simple(whatever simple is for your current coding profishensy) and build upon that. But the complexity of the final outcome is usually more dependint on coding knowledge, the desired result of the mod, the time put into it, level of realism, ect.
I would say, Start simple and keep it effecient.
As to the greater question of a simple game vs a complex one, I personally like the middle ground, I enjoy a good amount of micromanagement, but it has to build around an acual game. I don't mind doing some math when it relates to my future actions, but I don't like having to micromanage current actions(like figuring combat odds when I'm battling units).
I like how Masters of Orion 2 was set up, but three went to far with regions and buildings and different sizes and all the screens you had to click through just to do stuff. They got way to complex with the UI and the game mechanics.
Civ4, I think came out with a nice balance in the vanilla, less micromanagment, more gameplay, but I could stand for some more micromanagment, I miss acual rioting cities from unhappyness, gave a reason to go into the city screen.
This really is a preference and modders are going to find a market for mods from the most simple ot the most complex if it is done right and has a half decent premise, so all you future modders keep at it and sick with the number one rule always
Make a mod that you enjoy playing.
If you do this then you always win.
"DnD Mod is a small mod that limits civs to 12 hero units and one city and pits them against each other and the wandering barbarian monsters."
Once you have that you need to determine what areas need to be modded. By the above DnD example, need new unit graphics and decide if unit limiting can be done in xml or python.
When you have these two things my advice is to jump in and start messing with the code. Afterall the worst that can happen is a game crash, just remember to keep back up copies or some sort of record of what you change so you know where to look for errors.
Originally Posted by dh_epic
2) FUNCTIONLESS FLUFF: Sometimes people add a feature that really does nothing to the actual *game*. Let's say someone adds a 'crime' element to the game, with a random 'criminal' unit popping up that you need to kill from time to time. What's one criminal unit going to do? Maybe pillage a tile before the player takes care of it. This doesn't add a new strategy or choice to the game. It adds fluff in the name of realism.
This is a good point. The example pilliaging criminal is empty and almost just annoying because it has no real effect. It needs to have some sort of impact on a game. The player needs to interact with it in some way. Even if the effect is "bad" and it makes the player "angry" that is better then indifferense and bordem and its often that angering aspect that keeps you playing for hours and hours. Like, how bout if your city had X unhappy people for Y turns, then Z population would leave your city as Riot units and begin pillaging the squares around the city and any that are killed won't return to the city after N turns of rioting. This then has function, if you don't keep your city happy or policed then it will be negatively effected, and also fluff, instead of numbers being changed behind the scenes there are onscreen actions that can be seen. On top of that it has a way for direct player actions to effect the outcome, ie they can attack the Riot units and destory them or just gaurd specific resourses limiting or even nulifing the pillage effect.
It goes back to what has been said about System vs. Feature, a feture generally have a very liner cause => effect stucture(unhappyness => criminal unit => tile or two pillaged), where as a system tends to have multiple causes, effects, and sideeffects(unhappyness and unhealthyness taken into acount for spawning, decisions given to player, outcomes variety and interactable).
Kael said:We have a lot of people saying that one of your goals should be to keep your design as simple as possible. Is there anyone who disagrees with this? Does anyone think that the game is to simple and adding complexity makes it better?
I both agree and disagree with complexity in mods. Take FfH, or any of the other mods that rewrite the game, these are very complex and intricate endevors and many many people take on the learning curve above and beyond the basic Civ4 for one because it is well done and exicuted. Its basic premise required alot of complexity, that complexity required alot of time, and the production team put that time into it. If these points are met then complex mods are fine.
On the flip side many complex mods don't require the complexity or the modders didn't put in the need time and in these situations it doesn't work out well. These leads back to designing before modding, laying out what needs to be done and what doesn't and how that translates into code.
Now it is good advise to start simple(whatever simple is for your current coding profishensy) and build upon that. But the complexity of the final outcome is usually more dependint on coding knowledge, the desired result of the mod, the time put into it, level of realism, ect.
I would say, Start simple and keep it effecient.

As to the greater question of a simple game vs a complex one, I personally like the middle ground, I enjoy a good amount of micromanagement, but it has to build around an acual game. I don't mind doing some math when it relates to my future actions, but I don't like having to micromanage current actions(like figuring combat odds when I'm battling units).
I like how Masters of Orion 2 was set up, but three went to far with regions and buildings and different sizes and all the screens you had to click through just to do stuff. They got way to complex with the UI and the game mechanics.
Civ4, I think came out with a nice balance in the vanilla, less micromanagment, more gameplay, but I could stand for some more micromanagment, I miss acual rioting cities from unhappyness, gave a reason to go into the city screen.
This really is a preference and modders are going to find a market for mods from the most simple ot the most complex if it is done right and has a half decent premise, so all you future modders keep at it and sick with the number one rule always
Make a mod that you enjoy playing.
If you do this then you always win.
