How to fix Exploration legacy paths?

Siptah

Eternal Chieftain
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It seems that there is almost a consensus among players (well, the people that are still playing and posting) that the legacy paths for Antiquity are fine. However, the legacy paths for Exploration have been criticized at many points in the discussion. So, how would they become more interesting?

Culture
Collect 12 relics.
It's fine to have one path that focuses on great works imho, and one on religion as well. Yet, to me at least, it feels like this is too easy to fulfill. Some wonders help, and if you choose the belief that your own cities give a relic when converted, befriend a city state, and research the techs and civics that give relics, you are always set. It's welcome that you don't have to run around the map with 20 missionaries to create relics, but I think it is now too passive. I don't really have a good idea how to change that without making it tedious again. For example, saying that any conversion (regardless of first or later) creates a relic but you require 50 could be quite tedious. This could be a tiny bit more interesting if cities give more than towns, temples and wonders increase that, etc. But I don't think it would really improve the path. So, maybe this requires a new religious gameplay first.

Economic
Gain 30 points from treasure fleets.
As much as this is hated by some, I think that at the base this works well. The problem is the RNG of treasure resource spawning. This isn't that much an issue on smaller maps, but even there, the path's difficulty can reach from almost automatic (if you find 2-3 spots to conquer or settle early) to hardly possible (if no spots with more than 1 treasure exist). For an improvement, I would slightly increase the amount necessary but offer an alternative way to get points: trade. You need to have at least one settlement in the distant lands. Then, when you import a treasure resource from a DL civ, the nearest DL settlement of yours gains one treasure resource. This generates 1 additional point for the fleet, just as physical treasure resources do. While this still keeps the theme of going to the DL, it allows to focus on the homeland, with just creating 2-3 trading posts in the DL to trade for treasures. It will probably be difficult to get enough points just from that to complete the path – or at least, it should be difficult – it means that you can gain a few milestones without having to play each game in the same way.

Militaristic
Gain 12 Non Sufficit Orbis points. 1 point for each DL settlement, 2 if it was conquered or converted to your religion, 4 if both.
In general, I find this path is fine, but a bit too easy and one-dimensional. I'd keep the scoring as is but would add 1 point for conquered settlements in the HL, and 2 if it is following your religion. The required score should be higher, e.g., 16. That would translate to conquer and convert 8 settlements in the homeland, or 4 in the DL – with combinations between the two being possible. It's also possible to refine it more and make a distinction between cities and towns but I'm not sure if this complication would bring much benefit. Alternatively, it could be about population in the DL, and not simply settlements.

Scientific
Have 5 districts with 40+ yields.
This is currently the most boring path. It depends on science insofar as researching masteries gives bonuses to buildings. The problem is that you don't need too many of these, especially if you also generate culture to unlock policies and civics that increase yields (or wonders). Hence, almost any reasonable tile with 2 exploration age buildings or even antiquity unique districts can reach 40 yields. In consequence, you reach this legacy path's goal automatically as you go through the age and slot 2 specialists on the same tile. This path thus has two issues: boring and too easy. I'm not sure how to fix the boring part, but I think if it would just be harder, there is already something to be gained. If it were 50 yields per tile, you need tiles that actually have good adjacencies, and potentially research enough techs to get to 3 specialists per tile. But that still wouldn't be all that interesting. Yet, it would require some more planning and investment.
 
I think, for economy Path, that they will remove the distant land concept. So treasure resources always create treasure convoy and the mission Will be to carry them to te Capital. This make also important the decision of the position of the Capital at the start of the exploration age.
 
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I's day Antiquity ones are the best, but still culture one is too dependent on difficulty level.

Anyway, speaking about exploration:
  • Culture one is fine, because unlike 2 other culture legacy paths it's not a race and is tied well to how religion works now. If religion will have significant changes, this legacy path may require revisiting too.
  • I really dislike randomness of the current economic path, but I like how it drives settling further. The ways to change it, as I see:
    • Extreme is to get rid of treasure fleets, base this legacy path on resources again (like the other 2) and make modifiers depending on how many continents you have resources from and whether they are generated by your own settlements or traded (with your settlements value more). That's the way to potentially remove distant lands at all, while keeping some driver to settle outside. But this would require too many changes.
    • Less extreme is to create more ways to generate treasure fleets. My first idea is to have additional trader action (on top of establishing trade route and creating roads) to generate a treasure fleet in foreign settlement with access to treasure resources, something like that.
  • Militaristic. Yes, I think it's generally fine and fits the theme. You make conquest, you do it in distant lands. Religion ties are a bit weird, but cross-path connections are generally nice, so it's fine as it.
  • Scientific. Current is the nice optimizer tutorial, but tutorial is only fun the first time. On the other hand, the current victory is tied to various master techs, granting additional yields to specialists and buildings, making it quite scientific. I, honestly, don't know how to make it better without introducing new entities.
 
Main problem with Economic path is how slow the treasure fleets are. It doesn't reward settling Distant Lands, it rewards settling Near My Coast Because Otherwise It Takes Me 20 Turns To Lug This Gold Home And The Era Will End Before I Cash It In Lands. It also gets harder the bigger the map size is, which is nonsensical. It would be fine and reward a variety of game plans if the the treasure fleet could move 10 tiles a turn. I don't care that it makes them harder to capture. Capture them by sieging the coastal city and grabbing it on spawn. Or leave speed as it is, but decouple the effects - make it grant gold on cash-in, but give the points immediately when you spawn or capture one.

Militaristic is just awkward. It gives you zero points if you conquer half your own continent, but gives you full military medal for settling and converting six middle-of-nowhere islands. It's an awkward twist if you just want to warmonger in all three eras. It's equally awkward that it turns everyone bar Mongolia (as in - including Shawnee and Inca) into colonisers. It also rewards religion far too much. Not sure if there's an obvious fix here, though, because of how thematically disjointed it is, but I much prefer Mongolian variant to the default one.

Culture is fundamentally fine, just far too videogamey. It doesn't reward religious dominance, it rewards converting a small and specific subset of settlements for a single turn. Make it more like modern economy, maybe? 500 points, each converted city generates X points a turn, each slotted relic generates X points a turn.

Science is fine. Research gives extra yields and extra specialist slots. It's too easy to achieve, sure, so the requirement might need tweaking. It's not egregious or limiting, though, and it links directly - research leads to more legacy points. In a world where exploration is harder era, you could miss it on low science civs.
 
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Culture--it's just super conspicusous that there is no music/art/drama/poetry to speak of, really in the entire game. I wonder if their inevitible addition will lead to a total revamp of Exploration culture.
 
Main problem with Economic path is how slow the treasure fleets are. It doesn't reward settling Distant Lands, it rewards settling Near My Coast Because Otherwise It Takes Me 20 Turns To Lug This Gold Home And The Era Will End Before I Cash It In Lands. It also gets harder the bigger the map size is, which is nonsensical. It would be fine and reward a variety of game plans if the the treasure fleet could move 10 tiles a turn. I don't care that it makes them harder to capture. Capture them by sieging the coastal city and grabbing it on spawn. Or leave speed as it is, but decouple the effects - make it grant gold on cash-in, but give the points immediately when you spawn or capture one.

Militaristic is just awkward. It gives you zero points if you conquer half your own continent, but gives you full military medal for settling and converting six middle-of-nowhere islands. It's an awkward twist if you just want to warmonger in all three eras. It's equally awkward that it turns everyone bar Mongolia (as in - including Shawnee and Inca) into colonisers. It also rewards religion far too much. Not sure if there's an obvious fix here, though, because of how thematically disjointed it is, but I much prefer Mongolian variant to the default one.

Culture is fundamentally fine, just far too videogamey. It doesn't reward religious dominance, it rewards converting a small and specific subset of settlements. Make it more like modern economy, maybe? 500 points, each converted city generates X points a turn, each slotted relic generates X points a turn.

Science is fine. Research gives extra yields and extra specialist slots. It's too easy to achieve, sure, so the requirement might need tweaking. It's not egregious or limiting, though, and it links directly - research leads to more legacy points. In a world where exploration is harder era, you could miss it on low science civs.

Yeah, I would generally agree. I don't have the econ victory, but we need a few more ways to get convoys back, and I do think some people have proposed alternate ways to get convoys also as a bonus (either an endeavor where you get an econ point from it, or maybe a trade route to a distant lands civ can also somehow generate points). Also I think the nature of the other legacies being easier to achieve, and the expensive cost to the turn timer for completing them, leads you to running out of time. If the other paths were harder, so even in a good game you're barely getting to the final chapter, then the econ path probably balances better.

Military I agree too, since it also has this weird doubling of religious path. Maybe the scoring should be more like you get 1 point for each population point you conquer, and one point for each population point of yours on distant lands (so conquering in distant lands is worth 2 effectively). And then maybe another point for each population in cities in distant lands, so it actually encourages you to set up an empire there. I'm still 50/50 on whether it makes sense to include religion in that path at all.

Culture yeah it's too easy, and the fact that you can spam the relic and get it converted away is a problem. So I'd be happy if that switched to a factory model - one point per settlement per turn converted. And maybe we keep the relics, and you get one point per relic per turn. So if you race out and get 20 relics early, you don't have to keep them converted?

Science I think just needs a little tweaking. I think enough civs have buildings with extra bonuses that it's just a touch too easy to get to the 40. But maybe it's just needing 8 or 10 tiles, so it encourages at least a little bit more to your empire. Or it's like "15 points", where a tile of 40 gets you 1 point, a tile of 50+ gives you 2, and 60+ gives you 3. Anything to bring back the old "tall vs wide" debates...
 
Culture--it's just super conspicusous that there is no music/art/drama/poetry to speak of, really in the entire game. I wonder if their inevitible addition will lead to a total revamp of Exploration culture.

Apparently, the 'Inspiration' civic is meant to encompass everything. It is even backed by a quote from Shakespeare ;)

I'd love to see some Civ-specific or Leader-specific Legacy Paths. I.e. Austria/Austrian leader could get such in Modern and Italy/Italian leader in Exploration.
 
The ancient era legacy paths are "fine" because they are pretty generic and essentially use mainline game mechanics and follow behavior most players would be doing anyways (building wonders, slotting resources, discovering techs, etc).

The exploration era ones use very specific game mechanics that aren't very well developed and feel like minigames for the most part, religion and treasure fleets most of all. And get very samey (rush to distant lands to find specific spots with specific resources) after the first few games.

They could fix them making them more generic (ie change the economic one to "have 20 trade routes, trade routes with treasure resources or distant lands count double")

Or, my preference, have multiple legacy path options for each, and each player picks them, giving more options each play through.
 
Culture yeah it's too easy, and the fact that you can spam the relic and get it converted away is a problem. So I'd be happy if that switched to a factory model - one point per settlement per turn converted. And maybe we keep the relics, and you get one point per relic per turn. So if you race out and get 20 relics early, you don't have to keep them converted?
Or 1 point per turn per relic in a settlement of your belief. But maybe that's too much of a conversion-reconversion marathon.

Science I think just needs a little tweaking. I think enough civs have buildings with extra bonuses that it's just a touch too easy to get to the 40. But maybe it's just needing 8 or 10 tiles, so it encourages at least a little bit more to your empire. Or it's like "15 points", where a tile of 40 gets you 1 point, a tile of 50+ gives you 2, and 60+ gives you 3. Anything to bring back the old "tall vs wide" debates...
I don't think increasing the number tiles helps that much. With normal growth (= number of specialists), each city will have 4-5 tiles above 40, except if you went with two civs with unique improvements. Increasing the threshold or as you suggest also transfer it to points would make it more challenging/require more planning.
 
The more I think about the Economic path, the stranger it becomes to me why they didn’t introduce an endeavor that can help generate treasure convoys/points. Especially for the age where I feel like the diplomacy gameplay is currently at its weakest.

And there are multiple ways in which you could implement such endeavors:

- Direct treasure convoys/points generation with DL civs, with a chance for them to generate their own convoys/points if they can support the endeavor. Tie it to the amount of treasure resources within their territory.
- Generate small amounts of treasure convoys/points with other civs on the home continent, while DL civs maintain the current convoy system.
- Allow treasure point generation from the regular trade routes, where they contribute a small amount of points whenever the unit returns to the origin settlement. This would also buff Chola and make their trade route distance bonuses more relevant, otherwise the civ does feel a bit aimless for its age.
- A mix/combination of all of the above.
 
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Very necessary thread, thanks for setting it up @Siptah!

For now just some thought about the economic legacy path, which - at least in theory - I find most intriguing.
There need to be other ways of gathering the ressources by settling the DL than just producing the treasure fleets yourself and bringing them home. This could go in to directions.
(A) has been already mentioned above: diplomatic endeavour. Nothing to add here.
(B) one has to be able to seize treasure fleets without going to full blown war. We therefore need: privateers as units or privateering warfare. If you want only treasure fleets, you don't want to colonize yourself, you don't want to go all in for an amphibious adventure capturing already established DL settlements of other civs, you don't want the risk of landwar on your home-turf, just because you snatched some ships. You don't want war weariness, you don't want 10 turns minimum of waging war, before peace is possible, you don't want to denounce until you reach -60 relationship status before declaring a non-surprise war. You just want the ships. As happened historically. Strategically - thinking especially also for Multiplayer - players hesitate to declare all out war just for capturing some ships. And so this rarely happens. Although waging privateering warfare is fun in principle. And can be meaningful strategically, if you yourself came to late to claim DL-space for yourself. Of course, privateering against other civilizations should decrease the relationship-status (maybe -10/20 per captured treasure fleet), but there need to be options below the threshold of all-out-war.
 
The more I think about the Economic path, the stranger it becomes to me why they didn’t introduce an endeavor that can help generate treasure convoys/points. Especially for the age where I feel like the diplomacy gameplay is currently at its weakest.
The ultimate goal of exploration legacy paths is to force player to settle wide into distant lands, so playing too hard with treasure fleet generation would surely hurt the concept. Having some ways to generate limited number of trade convoys is nice, though, especially for cases where you start far from the distant lands. This needs to be balanced carefully.
 
I think the legacy paths in exploration all suffer from being quite one dimensional. This is the age which most tries to shoehorn players into playing in a specific way. The paths themselves have issues, but the overarching concept of using the legacy paths to encourage a specific style of play is just as big a problem. There needs to be options and multiple routes for each path IMO...

Antiquity worked because its paths are fairly generic. They are all things you want to do while playing the game in whichever way you want (research techs, gather resources, build wonders, settle/conquer). In Exploration the tagline of 'do it in the distant land' is awkward for millitary. Science comes closest to being stuff you'd do generically but suffers from being borderline automatic, and always being done in the same way. It also doesn't feel connected to science to me. Culture and Economic are the worst since they feel like very tacked-on minigames that you have to play. Religion then proceeds to make millitary weird by encouraging you to just convert all your cities in a single turn and forget about it for the rest of the game.

I get that one of the goals was to introduce different gameplay experiences in each era, but that does force players to play in a specific way, making games more repetitive and hitting the feeling of player agency. I think it may have been a mistake to try and make legacy paths distinct between ages. Humankind with its era stars might have the better system...

I think the legacy paths will feel railroad-y and like they are hurting player agency until/unless the idea that they should define the gameplay in their age gets removed, and you end up with several ways to progress down them, with some ways shared between ages.
 
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I think that legacy paths (or at least half of them) nudge you to the DL is fine. There’s a whole bunch of land added at the beginning of the age, and settling there is what you would do when you see good free spots anyway. Treasure resources provide an additional way of making some spots better than others. But maybe that is too much nudging to settle at these spots and only these when you have a settlement cap?
 
The current legacy paths feel unfinished and hastily implemented, almost like placeholders for something bigger/better to be implemented in the future.

A well crafted exploration legacy path should offer greater flexibility and reflect historical nuance. To achieve this, players should earn exploration legacies based on meaningful milestones such as:
  • Being the first, second, or third civilization to reach distant lands
  • Establishing a colony with three or more resource tiles within its borders
  • Total area colonized in distant lands (e.g., cumulative hexes under cities and towns)
  • Reaching specific population thresholds in overseas colonies
  • Discovering natural wonders in distant territories (or something like El Dorado/Fountain of Youth - we had them in Sid Meier's Colonization)
  • based on suzerainty/diplo actions with independent powers in distant lands
  • Launching treasure ships (this can stay in some form)
  • Conquering cities in distant lands
It would be much more fun than a simple counter based on one measure.
 
As for the economic path/treasure convoys, I think there should be a building you can construct in a DL CITY that would allow you to cash in your treasure convoys without returning to homeland.

It would give an incentive to turn some DL settlement into cities and make larger maps more viable.
 
Rather than focusing on what exploration legacy does badly. I think what ancient legacy does great is it rewards you for things you already want to do, e.g settle conquer expand your economy. Then it becomes clear. Exploration and modern legacy do not do this well. They reward you for going outside your normal preferences, e.g. I have to settle here over where I want. I have to research this over what I really want. And that's why I personally think they suck. They force me to play the same game over and over and why we haven't played to the end of a game of civ vii in a long while. And civ vii was supposed to make it easier to finish a game. It did while the content was fresh but now it's getting repetitive. Looking forward to whatever they come up with
 
In my eyes they should increase the amount of point needed for each path while at the same time open up more methods for getting points towards each path. Take cultural, for example - it's weird that wonders lose a lot of importance after antiquity, so have them give points in exploration as well. Now I've got multiple ways to accumulate points and I can decide if I want to go all-in on one direction, try to balance the two, or even decide if I need to pivot midpoint in the age because one of them isn't working out for me. I think that would be fun.

I think ALL paths could benefit from keeping mechanics from the previous age while adding the new layer on top of them. I think you could probably even extend this to the modern age, as well, though it would require some tweaking.
 
Economic
Gain 30 points from treasure fleets.
As much as this is hated by some, I think that at the base this works well. The problem is the RNG of treasure resource spawning. This isn't that much an issue on smaller maps, but even there, the path's difficulty can reach from almost automatic (if you find 2-3 spots to conquer or settle early) to hardly possible (if no spots with more than 1 treasure exist). For an improvement, I would slightly increase the amount necessary but offer an alternative way to get points: trade. You need to have at least one settlement in the distant lands. Then, when you import a treasure resource from a DL civ, the nearest DL settlement of yours gains one treasure resource. This generates 1 additional point for the fleet, just as physical treasure resources do. While this still keeps the theme of going to the DL, it allows to focus on the homeland, with just creating 2-3 trading posts in the DL to trade for treasures. It will probably be difficult to get enough points just from that to complete the path – or at least, it should be difficult – it means that you can gain a few milestones without having to play each game in the same way.

I dont think the Distant Land concept is working, and i actually think it hurts the game, since it reduces map variety and streamline the game forcing the player to spend their early game looking for a new settlement

I thik it would be a better idea to make an alternative to the economy path that doesnt invovle DL

It also doesnt help that it makes everyone remember how Eurocentric is CIv VII
 
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