How to fix Exploration legacy paths?

[Krikkit1]

A few things

FIRST: Provide more time (this way you can make them harder to get and it won’t be as rushed/RNG)

Age Progress for Exploration milestones is 5-10-20 which means 60 turn age length (200-4-*35)… it should be 5-10-10 for a nice 100 turn age length (200-4-*25)…that way there is time for some accomplishments (adjust civic+tech costs to compensate)

SECOND: make Exploration game mechanics really work different.

Treasures Resources… should NOT be provided to your empire when you improve the tile. Instead Every settlement that has improved Treasure resources should Generate Treasure Convoys.
If you have a Trade route to a foreign Settlement with Treasure resources it will generate Trade Convoys for you (and a Lot of Gold for them)
They then must be cashed in at your Capital to provide you with 8 turns of access to the resources. (if it is from one of your Settlements you also get a gold bonus)

You get points for any cashed in at your Capital that were from
-any Distant Land Settlements. (2 points each)
or
-a Foreign Homeland Settlement on another continent (1 point each)
And Increase the points to say 50-70

And then to make sure that it’s not as map size dependent

The Convoys get a movement bonus if they started the turn in your territory

Naval +Embarked units should also get some significant speed boosts (after Shipbuilding II they should all move ~6)


Religion
Converting a settlement should require a missionary charge AND some Influence. The Influence cost would depend on the local religious “pressures” based on Relics in connected settlements, policies and history.(pressure would accumulate over time)

Those Relics should NOT be awarded on first conversion of special targets but only after the special target was your religion for X turns.(10-20?)

Then boost the level required up, move some away from the civics tree (instead they can give some effects that boost keeping/spreading your religion.. and a lot of those should be moved to the Religion Tree)


Science….just make it harder…have it at 50+ (since 50+ requires actual work)

Military…Fairly good as is, maybe give 2 point for conquered Homeland original Capitals or Holy cities. and beef it up to 15

 

[uppi]

My main problem with the Exploration culture legacy path is that it does not require any significant amount of culture. Yes, you need to research piety, but it is tier 1 tech, so you will get there eventually, even with abysmal culture. Theology helps, but is completely optional.

If we are keeping the relics, my idea would be to change relics to generate points per turn (like the economic legacy in modern) and then you can unlock multipliers in the civics tree. Mostly with traditions you can slot in, but maybe also a wonder or two. Traditions could be like:
- +1 point per relic in settlements with a
wonder
- +1 point per relic in settlements next to a navigable river

and so on.

 

[UWHabs]

A few things

FIRST: Provide more time (this way you can make them harder to get and it won’t be as rushed/RNG)

Age Progress for Exploration milestones is 5-10-20 which means 60 turn age length (200-4-*35)… it should be 5-10-10 for a nice 100 turn age length (200-4-*25)…that way there is time for some accomplishments (adjust civic+tech costs to compensate)

SECOND: make Exploration game mechanics really work different.

Treasures Resources… should NOT be provided to your empire when you improve the tile. Instead Every settlement that has improved Treasure resources should Generate Treasure Convoys.
If you have a Trade route to a foreign Settlement with Treasure resources it will generate Trade Convoys for you (and a Lot of Gold for them)
They then must be cashed in at your Capital to provide you with 8 turns of access to the resources. (if it is from one of your Settlements you also get a gold bonus)

You get points for any cashed in at your Capital that were from
-any Distant Land Settlements. (2 points each)
or
-a Foreign Homeland Settlement on another continent (1 point each)
And Increase the points to say 50-70

And then to make sure that it’s not as map size dependent

The Convoys get a movement bonus if they started the turn in your territory

Naval +Embarked units should also get some significant speed boosts (after Shipbuilding II they should all move ~6)


Religion
Converting a settlement should require a missionary charge AND some Influence. The Influence cost would depend on the local religious “pressures” based on Relics in connected settlements, policies and history.(pressure would accumulate over time)

Those Relics should NOT be awarded on first conversion of special targets but only after the special target was your religion for X turns.(10-20?)

Then boost the level required up, move some away from the civics tree (instead they can give some effects that boost keeping/spreading your religion)


Science….just make it harder…have it at 50+ (since 50+ requires actual work)

Military…Fairly good as is, maybe give 2 point for conquered Homeland original Capitals or Holy cities. and beef it up to 15

I could get by with all of these too. A decent balance overall.

Another point I remember going through a while back in another thread is that if you convert the religious game to be more influence-based, that gives you another interesting balance of how to spread your power. I kind of wouldn't have to see the way independent powers are done now as a race to convert be adapted to the religious scheme too. I think you need to be able to convert after the fact too, but maybe it's something like:
-spend a missionary charge to start the conversion process for a settlement. Like the IP, it's 15 or 30 turns until full conversion, in which point everyone basically can set however much influence in they want in the race
-Give me an option later once a settlement has adopted a religion to basically start a race to convert them away (probably also a missionary charge). What would happen there is the current religion maybe starts at the friendly zone, and have a free +1 influence per turn on the conversion, and everyone else comes in at the hostile zone. So you'd need to give a couple boosts up to beat them in the race.

If you have that in, basically you're probably in a state where you need missionaries to start any race to convert settlement, but to be able to beat anyone else in the races, you will need to spend probably a good amount of influence. Then you could also distinguish the reliquary beliefs differently based on whether you're first to convert the settlement vs in re-converting.

 

[Siptah]

-spend a missionary charge to start the conversion process for a settlement. Like the IP, it's 15 or 30 turns until full conversion, in which point everyone basically can set however much influence in they want in the race
-Give me an option later once a settlement has adopted a religion to basically start a race to convert them away (probably also a missionary charge). What would happen there is the current religion maybe starts at the friendly zone, and have a free +1 influence per turn on the conversion, and everyone else comes in at the hostile zone. So you'd need to give a couple boosts up to beat them in the race.

Honestly, having conversions triggered by missionaries and then taking several turns could also make the militaristic path more interesting. It would no longer be "buy 8 missionaries in 1 turn and convert simultaneously" but rather start the process, hope no one intervenes with their missionaries in the meantime, and be ready to bring in additional missionary power.

Temples and Relics (and potentially even Altars) could provide modifiers to speed things up or slow conversions down – e.g., a city with a temple and a religion takes longer to convert than a town with not religion and no religious building.

Maybe it would also be worth a narrative event if a settlement (whether foreign or your own) that is already following your religion has a conversion started that gives you a chance to invest influence to stop or slow down the conversion.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Honestly, having conversions triggered by missionaries and then taking several turns could also make the militaristic path more interesting. It would no longer be "buy 8 missionaries in 1 turn and convert simultaneously" but rather start the process, hope no one intervenes with their missionaries in the meantime, and be ready to bring in additional missionary power.

That's great idea. When I go for some religious legacy, I hate when other civilization missionaries convert settlements on their last turn of the age, after your last turn already ended and you can't respond to them.

 

[Porry]

I like the idea that treasure resources give bonus only to the town/city to which they have been assigned. Maybe, for the treasure convoy, you can generate It only in city or in town whit a specifico specializzation

 

[uppi]

I like the idea that treasure resources give bonus only to the town/city to which they have been assigned. Maybe, for the treasure convoy, you can generate It only in city or in town whit a specifico specializzation

Instead of a specialization, how about a building (trade post/port), which you need to build and then you can assign treasure resources to it and it would generate treasure convoys. A bit similar to how factories work.

This would also work for traded treasure resources and you could try to build trade hubs that are not too far away from your homelands, so you don't need to spend 20 turns trying to get the convoys back.

Specializations could then add extra slots to such towns.

 

[Leucarum]

I would argue that exploration culture's biggest virtue is that it's short. Civ games have never done religious gameplay well and I really don't want to go back to Civ6's missionary whack-a-mole. I suspect there's a difference between involved and engaging gameplay here.

I think the solution is that there needs to be choice in terms of how you score a culture victory, with religion just being one path of many.

 

[UWHabs]

I would argue that exploration culture's biggest virtue is that it's short. Civ games have never done religious gameplay well and I really don't want to go back to Civ6's missionary whack-a-mole. I suspect there's a difference between involved and engaging gameplay here.

I think the solution is that there needs to be choice in terms of how you score a culture victory, with religion just being one path of many.

Religion always has the challenge that if it's too strong, it forces you too much down that path. But if it's not strong enough, you can easily just ignore it. But yeah, the current system is a pain at the best of times, I definitely don't want it changed to something worse.

You could branch out the current culture legacy path though - instead of needing 12, you need 20 or 25 or whatever, and then you diversify the relics to not just be religious. You could add a new culture building (Art Studio?) that generates artistic relics (sculptures, paintings, etc). That way you could still mostly ignore the religious path if you're generating culture and getting deep into the culture tree more.

 

[Krikkit1]

I would argue that exploration culture's biggest virtue is that it's short. Civ games have never done religious gameplay well and I really don't want to go back to Civ6's missionary whack-a-mole. I suspect there's a difference between involved and engaging gameplay here.

I think the solution is that there needs to be choice in terms of how you score a culture victory, with religion just being one path of many.

The problem is that it gets the "food is bad and there wasn't enough" problem.

Part of the problem is that it is short because

1. Short time means "delivery time" matters more for the Treasure Convoys (it should be important but not as overwhelming as it is)
2. Short time means that any religious activity is "initial burst"

If they can make religion (and to a lesser degree Treasure Resources) an interesting gameplay, then it should be longer.

 

[Leucarum]

If they can make religion (and to a lesser degree Treasure Resources) an interesting gameplay, then it should be longer.

I agree but am extremely skeptical about the "if" portion. They didn't manage it in a decade with 6 after all...

 

[Krikkit1]

I agree but am extremely skeptical about the "if" portion. They didn't manage it in a decade with 6 after all...

Well in this case they have a key focus for religion (the Relics) so it is not only a "different way to make the yield go up". (although having that as well is good and needed)

This is where having Ages+Legacies could actually be useful because they don't have to worry about the balance of Religions v. Ideologies or how to make this "Faith" resource effective.

I agree it is hard but sticking with a short Exploration phase is a big problem because it forces any gameplay to be on the whack-a-mole level.. which does not fit with an age where travel (which takes time) should be important.

 

[Leucarum]

Well in this case they have a key focus for religion (the Relics) so it is not only a "different way to make the yield go up". (although having that as well is good and needed)

This is where having Ages+Legacies could actually be useful because they don't have to worry about the balance of Religions v. Ideologies or how to make this "Faith" resource effective.

I agree it is hard but sticking with a short Exploration phase is a big problem because it forces any gameplay to be on the whack-a-mole level.. which does not fit with an age where travel (which takes time) should be important.

I guess firaxis are going to need to decide whether to gamble on whether they can improve on this mechanic in relatively short order since the age/legacy system dramatically up the ante - how important it is.

Personally I wouldn't bet on it, especially as the direction of travel appears to be towards alternative/player-selected legacy paths if Inrecall correctly.

 

[Krikkit1]

I guess firaxis are going to need to decide whether to gamble on whether they can improve on this mechanic in relatively short order since the age/legacy system dramatically up the ante - how important it is.

Personally I wouldn't bet on it, especially as the direction of travel appears to be towards alternative/player-selected legacy paths if Inrecall correctly.

Well Religion was one of the things they mentioned as getting worked on more soon. So I wouldn't be surprised if they did do that (and hopefully extended Exploration so that their is more time for that new gameplay to be used.. and also give more time for the other Exploration gameplay to be filled out.)

 

[Leucarum]

Well Religion was one of the things they mentioned as getting worked on more soon. So I wouldn't be surprised if they did do that (and hopefully extended Exploration so that their is more time for that new gameplay to be used.. and also give more time for the other Exploration gameplay to be filled out.)

I would love to be that optimistic!

 

[Krikkit1]

I would love to be that optimistic!

Well I think they will Work on religion, and I could see extending the gameplay of Exploration to give it more time.... whether or not their changes actually improve the gameplay (or improve it enough) is less certain.