How to handle this start

[Mister Hocus]

Hi,

I've lurked these forums for a long time but I've finally decided to post.

I am a Prince level player, I'm confident I could do fine at Monarch, but I've held myself back because I'm not happy with some of my early game decisions and want to improve before I move up in difficulty.

I just started a new game on Prince with pretty much all the default options. It made me Churchill of the English who I've never really played with before. I want some opinions on how best to proceed and what I should be thinking about given the start I have. I want to get into the right mindset that all the higher difficulty players seem to have.

As you can see, I have four sources of seafood in my BFC, along with Cows and Horses. Some nice Grassland, a few plains, but not much in the way of production.

To begin with I researched Hunting while I built a Work Boat. Then once Hunting was done I got Animal Husbandry (for the Cows and to reveal any Horses) and I'm now going for Bronze Working (to reveal Copper and chop a Worker/Settler). Once the Work Boat was done I built a Worker (timed him to finish roughly as Animal Husbandry was done) and then started another Work Boat.

My rationale was to take advantage of starting with Fishing and let London grow while building a Work Boat, then get a Worker out, then another Work Boat.

My current plan is as follows:

1. Train a Warrior, move him to a strong city spot, chop a Settler out, build my second city then chop a second Worker for the second city.

2. Get a Barracks in London and get Archery ASAP, to rush Charlemagne with a force of Archers (Protective and Barracks should let them start with Drill II, Charismatic means they will promote quickly) while scouting out other rivals. Ideally I want a nice little stack of Drill IV Archers to be later upgraded to Redcoats.

3. Once Charlemagne is taken care of, provided I don't have another close rival, REX out on my available territory and make a beeline for Redcoats.

Is this a solid plan?

Beyond that:

1) How should I best leverage my food heavy start? Does the food heavy start mean I should make heavy use of the whip early on to get a production advantage over the AI, especially since the capital has production poor land?

2) Should I cottage the capital up, including the Plains? The food sources I have *should* be able to support Cottages on all non-Hill/Coast tiles.

3) Should I bother with a second city before rushing Charlemagne with Archers, or will that take too long?

4) Did I take the optimal tech path? How would I have improved it?

5) Should I beeline Calendar before Redcoats? There are two Calendar luxuries in the screenshot I provided and there's also two sources of Bananas north of Aachen. Thus far I haven't come across any non-Calendar resources.

Thanks in advance for any and all advice.

 

[Indiansmoke]

What a fantastic start!

After the second work boat I would build a worker, improve horses, while building warrior, then chop settler build mine and attack charlomane with either chariots or axes (if you find copper). He is protective as well so archers would fail.

 

[Glouglou]

Hello,

My first question is : did you move your settler?

You don't have the fresh water bonus ... I though it was provided to every start?

Too many food ressources is not that good from my point of view ... I would have moved W or SW ...

I also would have build more work boat before the worker ... (exploit all seafood ressources as fast as possible!)

 

[Indiansmoke]

Hello,

My first question is : did you move your settler?

You don't have the fresh water bonus ... I though it was provided to every start?

Too many food ressources is not that good from my point of view ... I would have moved W or SW ...

I also would have build more work boat before the worker ... (exploit all seafood ressources as fast as possible!)

Too many food resources not good? Why? After Moai statutes they will give production as well!

However some improvements that give hammers are needed before working all the seafood. Horses and hill should be a priority.

 

[Mister Hocus]

Hello,

My first question is : did you move your settler?

You don't have the fresh water bonus ... I though it was provided to every start?

Too many food ressources is not that good from my point of view ... I would have moved W or SW ...

I also would have build more work boat before the worker ... (exploit all seafood ressources as fast as possible!)

Yes I did. The settler started 1SW of where I founded the city. I moved him 1NE in order to pick up the fish. As it turns out, it was a good move, since it also got me horses in the BFC.

 

[Znabel15]

2. Get a Barracks in London and get Archery ASAP, to rush Charlemagne with a force of Archers (Protective and Barracks should let them start with Drill II, Charismatic means they will promote quickly) while scouting out other rivals. Ideally I want a nice little stack of Drill IV Archers to be later upgraded to Redcoats.

Why dont you connect the horsies and chariot-rush Charlie instead?

You could build a second city, but with a few whips & chops in your capital you could very quicly have 5-6 chariots that should be able to capture his capital.
The chariots are also much better fog-busters\barb-hunters than the archers.

 

[Refar]

You could build a second city, but with a few whips & chops in your capital you could very quicly have 5-6 chariots that should be able to capture his capital.
The chariots are also much better fog-busters\barb-hunters than the archers.

Charlie is protective as well. CGI+DrillI archers in defence. I think - i am sure actually - 5-6 chariots will be not enought. Having a second city helping with production seems a good idea, no matter what units you use to rush.

Besides: BW is due in 6 turns - with any luck there is copper nearby, which you can claim with your second city to Axe-Rush instead. I understand you wanting to give your archers some 'practice' for those DrillIV redcoats. But rushing a protective leader with archers is hard.

Since you are concerned about being to late for the rush, you might concider skiping (postponing) the second work boat - you settler should be ready to go ASAP. Then Second worker, Barracks then Troops. With improved fish and cows you have 9 food while working 2 tiles if i am not mistaken. (2 from town, 3 from cows, 4 from fish). Thats +5 surplus. At size 3 and working the Cow+Fish+Horses it's still +4 food surplus. At size 4 you will whipp anyway... Should be enought to regrow in time when whipping.

 

[Glouglou]

Too many food resources not good? Why? After Moai statutes they will give production as well!

However some improvements that give hammers are needed before working all the seafood. Horses and hill should be a priority.

Staying SW would have let him with 2 seafood ressource and the wheat largely enough for a good capitole ... the freshwater bonus is also not to neglect IMO.
The remaining clams could have been exploited by a city one north of the horses ...

Given that there not a lot of happyness ressources, he won't be able to grow the cities a lot .... so lots of food ressources is not that important from my point of vue ...

Concerning improving the other tiles :
It has been demonstrated on the forum that focusing on workboats is the better way to grow fast ...
exploit the forested plain hill while building the workboat, then exploit the improved seafood ressource till size 2 and re exploit the forested plain hill while building the second workboat ... etc. So I would have built at least 2 and probably 3 workboat before building a worker and stopping my city growing ...

 

[xanadux]

I would suggest scouting and expanding normally to start with. It will be expensive to rush a protective holy city ... already has 40% defense and you don't have a worker yet.

A little help on your build order ... when you have fish to improve, build the workboat with a high hammer tile. You will grow more quickly in the long run. If you have a forest plains hill, use it to build the workboat. Then start on another, working the fish til you grow, and then the fish and the 3hammer tile. Once second workboat is out, build a worker.

The improvement of the fish is worth 3x what you get from growing the city. So improving the fish is the bigger priority ... the city will grow very fast after the workboat is out. This is also true with clams, but with clams only being 4 food, it is not much of a loss. If you have fish though, there is a huge difference and the workboat is more important than growing.

 

[Znabel15]

Charlie is protective as well. CGI+DrillI archers in defence. I think - i am sure actually - 5-6 chariots will be not enought. Having a second city helping with production seems a good idea, no matter what units you use to rush.

Besides: BW is due in 6 turns - with any luck there is copper nearby, which you can claim with your second city to Axe-Rush instead. I understand you wanting to give your archers some 'practice' for those DrillIV redcoats. But rushing a protective leader with archers is hard.

Since you are concerned about being to late for the rush, you might concider skiping (postponing) the second work boat - you settler should be ready to go ASAP. Then Second worker, Barracks then Troops. With improved fish and cows you have 9 food while working 2 tiles if i am not mistaken. (2 from town, 3 from cows, 4 from fish). Thats +5 surplus. At size 3 and working the Cow+Fish+Horses it's still +4 food surplus. At size 4 you will whipp anyway... Should be enought to regrow in time when whipping.

Forgot about him being protective ..... that`s a real stick in the wheels so to speak, but still possible if he only has 2 archers.

But as others have said you could of course skip the whole rush and take him out later, I just got a bit carried away when I saw ponies in the BFS, somehow I seldom get strategic resources in my fat crosses...

 

[Belisar]

Forget archers, rush him with Chariots.
Chop and whip your army, 4 chariots for every defending archer.

 

[Memphus]

The move is ok (NE) River health isn't that big of deal. With all that food I would run an SE in the capital, palace jump somwhere mid game more into the middle of the continent (for Bureacracy and cottages), and end up with Globe Theater and National Epic in that city for it to be your GP farm.

For a higher level mentality specialize your cities. Every game you should look to set up the proper synergies:

1. Oxford University, Academy Cottage spam in your capital with Bureacracy for 75-80% of the game until Free Speech is too dominant to ignore (i.e. you have more towns in your empire than the lose of the bonus for the capital.

2. A Military City, it builds units. Up to Immortal I can get away with only 1 city building units. (Heroic epic.) Ideally has coastal access for ship production as well but not required.

3. Your Main Production City, Ironworks, settled on rivers, using watermills & Worskhops (state Property), This is the guy that get the factory and coal plant to build 3 Gorges for the entire continent.

4. Your GP farm / Specialist / grounds, Globe theater & National Epic, It gets big and makes lots of


Other than this all other cities are fluff, they usually take the form of the first city just not as powerful.

Every game early on you should be identifying the spot for each of those 4 cities.... Once you have em victory is easy

 

[lilnev]

Don't archer-rush. I don't even like a chariot-rush against a protective civ, although on Prince it might work. I would expand to 3 cities and then decide if I want to axe-rush or not. I agree with your research order, and with workboat-workboat-worker-warriors (to the happy cap)-settler-worker. Though as pointed out, you should have worked a forested plains hill to get the first boat in the water as fast as possible. This capital has so many great tiles, you should grow onto as many as you can, then become a worker/settler pump. Longer term, consider putting the NE and/or Globe here, which could mean moving the palace if you want to maximize Bureaucracy.

peace,
lilnev

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Rushers will want to note that Antium is a holy city - the defense bonuses will be climbing faster than you would normally expect.

 

[Refar]

Rushers will want to note that Antium is a holy city - the defense bonuses will be climbing faster than you would normally expect.

I was kind of thinking being a holy city is the reason to rush it

Kill the Mutant,
Burn the Heretic,
Purge the Unclean.



But VoU is of course right about the cultural defences staking with protective archers making the rush difficult.

 

[vicawoo]

I'd go plain hill workboat, 1 turn of worker or possibly clam if you need the commerce, grow to 2 on fishing boat, finish worker, grow to 3 on workboat/warrior, chop workboat after improving both quadrepeds if you like, settler.
I'm against archer rushing, I would either REX or stonehenge. You don't need to use all your seafood early, as 2 scientists, 2 land tiles means you can work at most 3 with a monument.

 

[McGoo]

Yes I did. The settler started 1SW of where I founded the city. I moved him 1NE in order to pick up the fish. As it turns out, it was a good move, since it also got me horses in the BFC.

I say this as a player that is still on prince, but I would think the original location would have been a little better. You give up the fish and the horses, but gain wheat and three grasslands. In the end I believe you will have about the same available food, esp with civil service. The land seems to give more options . The crab and horses can go to a city 1NE of the horses.

I know it's a moot point in the OP's game, but what do others think of this logic?

 

[Mister Hocus]

I say this as a player that is still on prince, but I would think the original location would have been a little better. You give up the fish and the horses, but gain wheat and three grasslands. In the end I believe you will have about the same available food, esp with civil service. The land seems to give more options . The crab and horses can go to a city 1NE of the horses.

I know it's a moot point in the OP's game, but what do others think of this logic?

I'm pretty sure I couldn't see the wheat at the start, which is why I chose to move, but I'm not completely sure on that.

To everybody else:

- Didn't realise Charlemagne was Protective! Doh! So much for the Archer rush idea.

- I actually did go Work Boat - Worker - Workboat, not Workboat - Workboat - Worker as some people thought. I didn't realise it was better to go for 2 or 3 Workboats to begin with... so thanks for the advice there!

- Yeah, I do know about city specialisation, which is why I asked whether I should cottage everything in the capital up ready for Bureaucracy.

As a side note, would the idea I had of rushing with Archers as Churchill work if the civ I was rushing wasn't Protective?

Thanks for all the advice guys. It all helps.

 

[Refar]

I guess you can rush with erverything, if you have enought of it.
Archers are cheap, so it might be possible to get enought of them. But i am quite sure, Chariot or Axes are more cost-efficient.

Here is a thread discussing archer rushes, perhaps the folks there know more: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=248175

 

[vicawoo]

once they can improve, earlier workers are much more valuable because extra worker turns = production. But you won't have other food for awhile and you have a plain forested hill.