how to improve the seas...

I like the stealing resouces idea, not the rerouting trade routes. The trade routes should just be blocked.
 
It would be nice to see more arcane ships. The air sphere seems most useful to ships, and I would love to a high level ship use Maelstrom. It would also be cool if it could cast tsunami so that it could turn land into passable water, or if a spell let it fly over land for a turn or two.
 
Hmmm, now that we have an air mana why not givethe fair winds spell to all ships of *insert the best magician civ here, amourieties?* after researching the tech for wizzards?

Just a spark of an idea.
 
well i think that instead of ships being able to cast land spells it shoudl be just taking a mage on board so its more of a risk but is also more versatile. thats why i proposed changing arcane barges to ahve their own set of spells
 
Been said before by others, but what the heck, ill say it again here.

make ship building available to cities that have coastal access, not just coastal cities, i.e. those with shore within their borders, not just those built on the shore. Do this by adding a tile improvement, a drydock i guess, that can only be built on shores and only 1 within a cities radius, then, having a dry dock in a cities radius allows that city to build boats that will appear at that location This is especially useful since most true coastal cities lack the shields to turn out much of a fleet

increase the speed of naval vessels, probably by atleast 2, this will make them viable means of transport within the same continent. as it stands now, with roads, by the time you move to a ship, load, transport, unload and move to your destination, you could have walked, often faster. Increase the usefulness of them as a means of transport and you will have to build a fleet to protect what you transport.

reduce the cost of boats, coastal cities often lack the shields to build a real fleet, since the game lacks real world mechanics, you know where parts are built in the land locked areas and shipped to a dry dock for assembly only, you need to compensate by reducing the cost to make fleet building viable. Or maybe just give a boost to cities working forests while building boats.

If at all possible, what i'd really like to see is waste from distance to capital changed to be not physical distance, but travel distance,or rather travel time, in other words a city may be 2 tiles away, but with roads its 1 move( to my knowledge, this isn't how it currently works). so building roads between your cities reduces the waste. Now allow this calculation to take into account the increased speed of water travel only when the way is safe(no barbs or hostiles) and you add a real incentive to maintain a defensive fleet and protect your coasts. by doing so you reduce waste to all your cities and actually make colonies viable, that is if you patrol and protect the water ways to your colonies.

increase the value of sea and ocean tiles, either directly or through city improvements and tech advances. even the lunans +1 food doesn't help oceans much(1 gold 3 food right? meh, give me a plain or a grass any day.) But make them workable only if nothing hostile is near them. (I noticed i was unable to work any tile near the sailors dirge, so i know this is possible).
Perhaps have a tech that grants a boost to fishing, increasing food, and it might make sense if astronomy gave a small commerce boost, since it does allow for ocean trade.

Then, finally, increase the risk. Increase the number of barbarian ships that spawn, and have them actually carry land units to deploy for coastal attacks(like the dirge). Teach the AI that sea travel is useful and protecting the sea vital.

thats all for now, although a couple quick things, i've always wondered why a pirate cove doesn't spawn pirates. i mean a Clan Embers barrow spawns skeletons right?(well sure the lunan aren't at peace with the barbs)
And has anyone seen the lanun actually harvest pearls?
 
First of all, re: the Arcane Barge, I think it is meant to essentially be a wizard permanently stationed on a ship and as such it should behave that way. I have honestly never built one, but I would hope it is treated as an adept in terms of promotions and experience gain (with a couple modifications to reflect the naval promotion tree).

Seont said:
make ship building available to cities that have coastal access, not just coastal cities, i.e. those with shore within their borders, not just those built on the shore. Do this by adding a tile improvement, a drydock i guess, that can only be built on shores and only 1 within a cities radius, then, having a dry dock in a cities radius allows that city to build boats that will appear at that location This is especially useful since most true coastal cities lack the shields to turn out much of a fleet
Click to expand...

I would propose this be extended to harbours and lighthouses as well, or at least allow them to be built on fresh water lakes over the size of say 3 tiles. Of course, these improvements would need to be connected by a road, and should give diminishing benefits based on distance to the parent city (reduced production of ships, reduced health bonus, etc.).


Seont said:
increase the speed of naval vessels, probably by atleast 2, this will make them viable means of transport within the same continent. as it stands now, with roads, by the time you move to a ship, load, transport, unload and move to your destination, you could have walked, often faster. Increase the usefulness of them as a means of transport and you will have to build a fleet to protect what you transport.
Click to expand...

This also needs to happen in vanilla. Ships are far, far too slow. However, I feel FfH does a better job of this already, but it could be better, especially for the earlier ships.


Seont said:
reduce the cost of boats, coastal cities often lack the shields to build a real fleet, since the game lacks real world mechanics, you know where parts are built in the land locked areas and shipped to a dry dock for assembly only, you need to compensate by reducing the cost to make fleet building viable. Or maybe just give a boost to cities working forests while building boats.
Click to expand...

I don't like the idea of reducing the cost of boats. Ships are bloody expensive, and represent a huge investment for a military. Look at the military budget for the USA - the Navy has by far the highest costs for commissioning new hardware (aircraft carrier, anyone?). This has been the case throughout history.

However, maybe something has to be done about the lack of production from coastal cities and maybe reduced cost of ships is the solution (however, then the external port facilities idea would need to be scrapped). Honestly, production IRL is based on labor and capital, i.e. population and commerce/resources. I know this is a game and hammers are the mechanic it uses. The current system also makes for interesting game play, so I don't have a better idea.


Seont said:
If at all possible, what i'd really like to see is waste from distance to capital changed to be not physical distance, but travel distance,or rather travel time, in other words a city may be 2 tiles away, but with roads its 1 move( to my knowledge, this isn't how it currently works). so building roads between your cities reduces the waste. Now allow this calculation to take into account the increased speed of water travel only when the way is safe(no barbs or hostiles) and you add a real incentive to maintain a defensive fleet and protect your coasts. by doing so you reduce waste to all your cities and actually make colonies viable, that is if you patrol and protect the water ways to your colonies.
Click to expand...

I think this is a cool idea. It should only happen after sufficient administrative/governmental technologies are discovered though.


Seont said:
And has anyone seen the lanun actually harvest pearls?
Click to expand...

Well, pearls only appear to the Lanun, so it would be pretty difficult to see them harvest them.
 
I agree with the two of you, especially Go Boks. I would also like to see blockading (and maybe siege, the land version thereof) added in general, with slight bonuses for the Lanun. Also, I think that Pirates cove should not be made to generate pirates, but should do any or all of the following: 1 add +1 trade route, 2 allow ships to gain (or maybe only regain) the hidden nationality promotion, and 3 give a ship the chance to get the "thievery" promotion, allowing it to steal resources. These changes would also take away any reason for the Corsair to exist, letting another unit win the contest while the Lanun still get all the bonuses their unique unit would have provided.
 
To be honest, I don't like any of those changes.

Trade routes make no sense. Also, what city would get the trade route?

Being able to turn hidden nationality on and off at will is a little too powerful IMHO.

I'm a little indifferent on the thievery thing, but I don't know if it is worth the effort it would be to code that.

I think Pirate Coves are fine as they are. Their ability to function as a canal is very powerful. If I added anything, it would be that ships don't pay an away-from-home maintenance fee if they are docked there. It would allow you to establish bases for your fleet around the world where they could patrol waters without them costing you a fortune.
 
What if a pirate cove just gave extra gold, and a ship stationed there could get HN if it had enough xp, not just for free. I agree that getting HN for free is too much, and wouldn't always be in the players best interest. As for the canal thing, that would be great pirates coves could be built right next to each other, but last I checked they cannot. I wouldn't be opposed to letting all workers build canals with the proper technology. Taking away maintenance for ships in pirates coves is a good idea.
 
the trade route from the pirate cove is meant to act liek another city for terms of trade routes but it only has 1 trade route max so witchever city chooses to trade with it gets the trade route
 
Go Boks said:
First of all, re: the Arcane Barge, I think it is meant to essentially be a wizard permanently stationed on a ship and as such it should behave that way. I have honestly never built one, but I would hope it is treated as an adept in terms of promotions and experience gain (with a couple modifications to reflect the naval promotion tree).
Click to expand...

the last time i built an arcane barge, it didn't. no empowerment promotions or things like that, i noticed no improvement from my combat 1 and 2 promotions for my fireballs either. though that was awhile ago. I was kinda dissapointed and quit building them.

Go Boks said:
I would propose this be extended to harbours and lighthouses as well, or at least allow them to be built on fresh water lakes over the size of say 3 tiles. Of course, these improvements would need to be connected by a road, and should give diminishing benefits based on distance to the parent city (reduced production of ships, reduced health bonus, etc.).
Click to expand...

well i'm not sure about the distance penalty, but other wise, exactly. and if you like, give true coastal cities a free internal port so they can build automaticly

Go Boks said:
I don't like the idea of reducing the cost of boats. Ships are bloody expensive, and represent a huge investment for a military. Look at the military budget for the USA - the Navy has by far the highest costs for commissioning new hardware (aircraft carrier, anyone?). This has been the case throughout history.
Click to expand...

Rather than bore the heck out of everyone with a long winded reply(i even bored myself with it, so i nixed it), i'll say just this: Personally, i feel the CIV series has so many fundamental design flaws when it comes to a navy and the oceans, in my humble oppinion, that i'm not going to like any fix, only the result,which is hopefully a real naval aspect to the game. So no, i don't like the cheaper boats either, but i think it will help bring the navy into the game.

Go Boks said:
However, maybe something has to be done about the lack of production from coastal cities and maybe reduced cost of ships is the solution (however, then the external port facilities idea would need to be scrapped). Honestly, production IRL is based on labor and capital, i.e. population and commerce/resources. I know this is a game and hammers are the mechanic it uses. The current system also makes for interesting game play, so I don't have a better idea.
Click to expand...

i'm confused, why, in that scenario, would the external port need to be scrapped? The production loss? But yeah, i really don't like reducing the cost, but i can't think of a better idea given the mechanics we have to work with. Personally i kinda want to see the harvesting of building materials seperated from the actual labor of building like most 4x space games do, with multiple cities able to contribute to a single project...but it ain't gonna happen.

Go Boks said:
Well, pearls only appear to the Lanun, so it would be pretty difficult to see them harvest them.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, thats not quite what i meant. You are right, i wouldn't see them harvested, but i meant more that I've never seen them trade pearls, much less gotten the lanun to trade them with me. A whole resource wasted as far as i can tell. I even forced both lunan peoples into the games for a while there trying to get pearls traded to me, but never happened, the lunan were never near the peals, or just didn't harvest them(or, you know, i killed them before they could, oops.)

Go Boks said:
I think Pirate Coves are fine as they are. Their ability to function as a canal is very powerful. If I added anything, it would be that ships don't pay an away-from-home maintenance fee if they are docked there. It would allow you to establish bases for your fleet around the world where they could patrol waters without them costing you a fortune.
Click to expand...

just again, something associated with pirates that isn't really piratical in any sense. no maintenance sounds good, and maybe it could let the lunan harvest pearls in rival territory since it seems thats the only way they'll ever be able to harvest the pearls. Out of curiousity, how often can you get a canal thats of any real value, granted when you can its a boone, but i don't often see too many isthmuses where i can save a great deal of time with a canal over going around.
 
the problem is that perals are extremely rare and considering the mount of space they an appear in is so small and spread out they almost never get even one, and its probobly impossible to get 2 of them wihtout getting a domination victory.

really i htink they shoudl be really common so then they might use them
 
Seont said:
i'm confused, why, in that scenario, would the external port need to be scrapped? The production loss?
Click to expand...

Well, I think it would be unbalancing to reduce the cost for coastal cities that generally have lower production, and then allow high production interior cities to build ships at that lower cost. Personally, I try to build coastal cities at the end of a natural harbour so they have good production, but that is just my style.


Seont said:
I'm sorry, thats not quite what i meant. You are right, i wouldn't see them harvested, but i meant more that I've never seen them trade pearls, much less gotten the lanun to trade them with me. A whole resource wasted as far as i can tell. I even forced both lunan peoples into the games for a while there trying to get pearls traded to me, but never happened, the lunan were never near the peals, or just didn't harvest them(or, you know, i killed them before they could, oops.)

just again, something associated with pirates that isn't really piratical in any sense. no maintenance sounds good, and maybe it could let the lunan harvest pearls in rival territory since it seems thats the only way they'll ever be able to harvest the pearls. Out of curiousity, how often can you get a canal thats of any real value, granted when you can its a boone, but i don't often see too many isthmuses where i can save a great deal of time with a canal over going around.
Click to expand...

I've never checked, but can you trade for Iron, etc. before you have researched the appropriate tech? If not, that might explain why the Lanun don't trade Pearls. Otherwise, it is probably the scarcity of water resources in general. Jacking up the frequency unbalances the game when the player controls the Lanun though. I think allowing pirates coves to harvest Pearls, or water resources in general, is a better idea.

On the lack of naval play by the AI, I honestly don't see it. In most of my games, the AI builds up a significant navy (and often annoys the hell out of me with it). When I decide to fight a foreign war, I have to spend quite a lot of turns building a navy myself before I can attack. I think the difference is a lot of people play on pangaea, no ocean or 2 continent maps, whereas I play on multi-continent maps. Navies are more important on my maps, and it looks like the AI reacts accordingly.
 
Go Boks said:
Well, I think it would be unbalancing to reduce the cost for coastal cities that generally have lower production, and then allow high production interior cities to build ships at that lower cost. Personally, I try to build coastal cities at the end of a natural harbour so they have good production, but that is just my style.
Click to expand...

Oh, i see now, valid point, though i disagree about it being unbalancing neccessarily, some cities produce more than others anyways. But very valid point. I feel dense for having missed that

Go Boks said:
I've never checked, but can you trade for Iron, etc. before you have researched the appropriate tech? If not, that might explain why the Lanun don't trade Pearls. Otherwise, it is probably the scarcity of water resources in general. Jacking up the frequency unbalances the game when the player controls the Lanun though. I think allowing pirates coves to harvest Pearls, or water resources in general, is a better idea.
Click to expand...

Interesting, i never thought of that, okay......... I just map editor'd a game to give hannah the irwin pearls, and connected us, i could see that she had them for trade. but copper, that i gave myself, i could not trade because she lacked the tech. so they can be traded, if the lanun get them, they just never do, but you can see them on the trade menu even though you lack the tech,so i have to go with my earlier assessment, its almost a completely wasted resource, and more than that, a completely wasted bonus to the lanun since they appear so rarely. something needs to change.

Go Boks said:
On the lack of naval play by the AI, I honestly don't see it. In most of my games, the AI builds up a significant navy (and often annoys the hell out of me with it). When I decide to fight a foreign war, I have to spend quite a lot of turns building a navy myself before I can attack. I think the difference is a lot of people play on pangaea, no ocean or 2 continent maps, whereas I play on multi-continent maps. Navies are more important on my maps, and it looks like the AI reacts accordingly.
Click to expand...

Well i'm more of a mind of giving a reason to the navy, that the AI uses it little in my experiences,(2 continent maps usually) is no surprise since i only build them being a tall ship/pirate fan, its kinda of a compulsion to build them even knowing i have no real use for them.
 
the reason i dont use pirate coves as canals is that first off you need to have a space that only has 1 space between it and another ovean witch almost never happens on non archapelgeo maps and even on archapelgeo maps usually its easier to just go around. and it takes up a units entire turn to pass it and you need to have a transport there
 
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