mastertyguy
I'm tired!
So you could just edit it.PrinceOfLeigh said:
How to keep up in tech?
- Thread starter Chris Withers
- Start date
Chris Withers
Chieftain
I had thought I wanted to do gpt trades to get tech, instead of a load of instant cash. The thought is to use a gpt agreement to keep some of the evil AI civs from attacking while beating up on a civ you don't have a gpt agreement with. Of course luxuries should be traded for tech, but that is never enough.
Is the reasoning to not do gpt for tech, esp with the tech leader, to keep them from being able to max out their research? If so, does that then over-ride the desire to keep civs from ganging up on you and one just takes their lumps here? Or perhaps do gpt agreements but just not with whoever the tech leader is? But the other civs would give the leader gpt anyway so what's the harm if I'm adding to the mix with the leader or to another civ?
Is the reasoning to not do gpt for tech, esp with the tech leader, to keep them from being able to max out their research? If so, does that then over-ride the desire to keep civs from ganging up on you and one just takes their lumps here? Or perhaps do gpt agreements but just not with whoever the tech leader is? But the other civs would give the leader gpt anyway so what's the harm if I'm adding to the mix with the leader or to another civ?
Well no blank policy would cover all conditions. So I do not want to dump a lot of cash or give a fat gpt deal to any civ, especially if they are top dog. I may do it under some conditions. Such things as it is a tech that can keep me alive or to get to the ToE in time for my prebuild or other special circumstances. I won't like, but I will.
GPT is less desirable than lump sum as it reduces my flexibility. I also suspect the AI will be more likely to fund research or buy another lux with gpt.
This whole thing is mitigated, if I can broker the tech and get most of my cash back or another tech or both.
As to them attacking or not based on my having a gpt with them, it does not stop them. They will break the deal and lose the income, so it won't save you. It is a small factor.
As to dog pile, you are going to get the big civs bringing in their friends and using your cash to do it. The best way around that is to be strong enough to make the lower ranked civs hesitate. Then to bribe them with the money you were going to give the top dog. Better yet give them a tech or a lux.
In many of the levels, the civs at your level or lower (score or strength) will have no money. They spend all they have and that is why it is hard to sell them anything.
Anyway it may come to pass that you have to take on a few civs, but they tend to not send a lot of units. If they are able to send in a bunch you already were in a bad spot.
GPT is less desirable than lump sum as it reduces my flexibility. I also suspect the AI will be more likely to fund research or buy another lux with gpt.
This whole thing is mitigated, if I can broker the tech and get most of my cash back or another tech or both.
As to them attacking or not based on my having a gpt with them, it does not stop them. They will break the deal and lose the income, so it won't save you. It is a small factor.
As to dog pile, you are going to get the big civs bringing in their friends and using your cash to do it. The best way around that is to be strong enough to make the lower ranked civs hesitate. Then to bribe them with the money you were going to give the top dog. Better yet give them a tech or a lux.
In many of the levels, the civs at your level or lower (score or strength) will have no money. They spend all they have and that is why it is hard to sell them anything.
Anyway it may come to pass that you have to take on a few civs, but they tend to not send a lot of units. If they are able to send in a bunch you already were in a bad spot.
Chris Withers said:
on deity i dont think i ever could catch up simply because i built a bunch of universities. catching up for me is usually a combination of two late-game factors:
1) the ai gets more and more warlike. this interferes with their trades amongst themselves. it causes war weariness. it causes infrastructure damage. it causes razings. it causes elimination. in short it causes the ai research to slow way down. you as a player can often exploit this effect by "encouraging" the ai to get involved in war.
2) starting around the middle of the industrial age espionage becomes more and more profitable. shortly into the modern age tech can be stolen at a quarter the cost of self-research. the player can do some incredible catching up in the late game by tech-theft.
Chris Withers
Chieftain
"As to them attacking or not based on my having a gpt with them, it does not stop them. They will break the deal and lose the income, so it won't save you. It is a small factor."
That is exactly the opposite of what is said in the Babylon Deity Settler's article. That writer says that a gpt makes it less likely for them to attack.
Or is it that it is only less likely if the gpt is large enough a deal? Or is it that one would care much less if a gpt agreement was broken since one then got whatever one traded for (presumably tech) on the cheap? This happened to me in my current game. The evil Aztecs demanded the gold, I said forget it, they declared war, and instantly my gpt goes up a nice amount due to them breaking the agreement.
On those two points in the preceding post, any specific tips on conducting them?
That is exactly the opposite of what is said in the Babylon Deity Settler's article. That writer says that a gpt makes it less likely for them to attack.
Or is it that it is only less likely if the gpt is large enough a deal? Or is it that one would care much less if a gpt agreement was broken since one then got whatever one traded for (presumably tech) on the cheap? This happened to me in my current game. The evil Aztecs demanded the gold, I said forget it, they declared war, and instantly my gpt goes up a nice amount due to them breaking the agreement.
On those two points in the preceding post, any specific tips on conducting them?
Personal experience - I've had gpt deals made and broken the very next turn. Yes, sometimes it does stop them from attacking you, but when they want to go to war and they think they'll win, nothing will stop them from declaring.
"On those two points in the preceding post, any specific tips on conducting them?"
Chris it does help, it is just that it is not going to be a lock. That is why I said a factor. I have not tested it to the level to address the odds, only that as many will tell you I have had deal broken.
I am not sure what points you are refering to. If it is about the stealing, I must use stealing at Sid, just flat out is cheaper in the late game.
Wars are a means to slow down the AI at any level, if you can get them to fight with each other AND IF one is not too strong for the other. It does not help you if one rolls the other one up. It just got stronger.
The other possible down side is that the AI may get rid of its less modern units and replace them or upgrade them with better units. I prefer to not have them fight much after I start moving.
In many sid games they will get to the point that no cities will be made and they have maxed out their support. So I do not want them to get thinned out a bit and then build better stuff. You see them get to were they have disband all their workers and are locked down.
I want as many of the lessor units as I can get when I show up.
Chris it does help, it is just that it is not going to be a lock. That is why I said a factor. I have not tested it to the level to address the odds, only that as many will tell you I have had deal broken.
I am not sure what points you are refering to. If it is about the stealing, I must use stealing at Sid, just flat out is cheaper in the late game.
Wars are a means to slow down the AI at any level, if you can get them to fight with each other AND IF one is not too strong for the other. It does not help you if one rolls the other one up. It just got stronger.
The other possible down side is that the AI may get rid of its less modern units and replace them or upgrade them with better units. I prefer to not have them fight much after I start moving.
In many sid games they will get to the point that no cities will be made and they have maxed out their support. So I do not want them to get thinned out a bit and then build better stuff. You see them get to were they have disband all their workers and are locked down.
I want as many of the lessor units as I can get when I show up.
Lord Parkin
aka emperor
Personally I go for a completely different approach to techs: even on levels like Emperor, I still buy techs from the AI with gpt and/or lump sums of money as well as researching a lot of techs myself. Some players may dispute this strategy, but my reasoning is as follows: I HATE games where the tech rate crawls along at a snail's pace!!! By buying techs off the AI as soon as they get them and selling them mine in return, the tech pace is doubled or even tripled from the 'usual'. (Plus, I get extremely rich by doing this - because although it costs me thousands of gold to buy some newly discovered tech from the AI, I get that money back tenfold by then reselling my newly acquired tech to all/most of the rest of the AI in the game!!!) Using this strategy, in most of my games I enter the Modern ages at ridiculously early times (can't remember exactly, but my record is some time before 750 AD!!!).
I admit that this strategy only works on the medium-high difficulty levels - the AI must be good enough to be able to keep up in tech with you! You've also got to have a reasonable skill at the game to be able to keep up the high tech pace while being able to hold off against the AI's increased military edge. I'm not certain that this strategy will work on the VERY highest difficulties either - but around Emperor (and maybe a bit above), it works just fine for me.
I admit that this strategy only works on the medium-high difficulty levels - the AI must be good enough to be able to keep up in tech with you! You've also got to have a reasonable skill at the game to be able to keep up the high tech pace while being able to hold off against the AI's increased military edge. I'm not certain that this strategy will work on the VERY highest difficulties either - but around Emperor (and maybe a bit above), it works just fine for me.
Lord Parkin as long as the AI has money that can work. The problem is that above emperor only the top dog has money most of the time. It is hard to sell a tech to a broke civ.
Lord Parkin
aka emperor
Actually, not many civs end up broke in my games. If they have no money, then I get them to give me luxuries or strategic resources in exchange for techs. And if they've got a decent amount of knowledge of the World Map that I don't, then I'll sometimes trade them a tech for that. If a civ has nothing of use to trade whatsoever, then they can still be of use in wars - giving them a tech or two is always a very effective way of getting a civ to declare war on a third party (and it can lessen the amount you would have to pay them in gold by several thousand!!!). Of course, inevitably there are SOME civs that never have anything to trade you in return for your techs and would be useless as allies in a war... but those weak, useless civs will usually get conquered by me anyway. 
Chris Withers
Chieftain
Thanks for all the replies fellers. What an amazing website & forum, and of course game.
On those 2 nice tips that were mentioned on keeping up in tech:
1. How do I get the AI civs to go to war vs each other?
2. I read or heard somewhere that planting a spy and trying to steal tech rarely works. Is that not true, does one just do a bunch of it and it pays off if you multiply the cost times the frequency of success?
One thing I noticed in previous games is if I establish embassies with most of the other "evil" empires (well, they are evil since they oppose me), then that seems to be the trigger if I get notified if they go to war with each other. Then if I can I offer to go to war with one of them (after a few turns) and get some tech in return.
On those 2 nice tips that were mentioned on keeping up in tech:
1. How do I get the AI civs to go to war vs each other?
2. I read or heard somewhere that planting a spy and trying to steal tech rarely works. Is that not true, does one just do a bunch of it and it pays off if you multiply the cost times the frequency of success?
One thing I noticed in previous games is if I establish embassies with most of the other "evil" empires (well, they are evil since they oppose me), then that seems to be the trigger if I get notified if they go to war with each other. Then if I can I offer to go to war with one of them (after a few turns) and get some tech in return.
Thanks! We try.Chris Withers said:
Usually you have to go to war with one and ally against that one with another. Do it enough, and they'll soon go to war against each other without your participation.Chris Withers said:
That's really up to the RNG god. Sometimes you do really well, sometimes you don't.Chris Withers said:
Not sure I understand this.... But when you have an embassy with a civ, you find out what deals they make. MAs, MPPs, and Trade Embargoes. You can't tell what trades, but with a bit of snooping you can figure it out. And the AIs like to get other people involved in the war, so that could be why you're profiting from going to war with one.Chris Withers said:
Lord Parkin
aka emperor
I'm fairly sure that the 'trigger' for letting you know when other civs go to war is simply contact with that civ. However, embassies do give you MUCH more information about all that stuff, plus they allow a heap of agreements, AND they usually increase the civ's attitude towards you by at least a factor of one, maybe two... so it's definately worth getting embassies. 
The_Unforgiven
KoEkWaUs
Doc Tsiolkovski said:
That's usually me, the one that gets fueled... (demi/deity)
. Learn to trade effectively as explained, and you'll do fine... I love the games with 15 opponents... It a brokering frenzy!Lord Parkin said:I'm fairly sure that the 'trigger' for letting you know when other civs go to war is simply contact with that civ. However, embassies do give you MUCH more information about all that stuff, plus they allow a heap of agreements, AND they usually increase the civ's attitude towards you by at least a factor of one, maybe two... so it's definately worth getting embassies.
I've only got notification when I've had embassies with the civs at war. Of course, YMMV.
AFAIK you need an embassy to be notified of wars that you are not part of. It is not easy to get wars among the other civs. One thing is to join a war in progress and buy in others, but sometimes that civ just sits on its hands. Other times the civ you brought in gets smashed.
You can find a situation where you have a nothing town in one civs land that you got for peace. Then give it to another civ and when they send in units to fort that town, they get a DoW. You just have to be creative.
Spying is very viable at Deity and Sid. First you have to be prepared to get war declared when caught. You can afford 3 attempts of the lower two cost for less than the price the research. I use it almost exclusively at Sid and do not research after the GL, not even with a single scientist. I used to try to get a tech like Ironclads with a 50 turn solo sci guy, but even that fails most of the time.
You can find a situation where you have a nothing town in one civs land that you got for peace. Then give it to another civ and when they send in units to fort that town, they get a DoW. You just have to be creative.
Spying is very viable at Deity and Sid. First you have to be prepared to get war declared when caught. You can afford 3 attempts of the lower two cost for less than the price the research. I use it almost exclusively at Sid and do not research after the GL, not even with a single scientist. I used to try to get a tech like Ironclads with a 50 turn solo sci guy, but even that fails most of the time.
I usually use the republican slingshot with commercial civs, especially greece and korea, where you research writing, code of laws, philosophy, and then take the republic as your free tech. Keep the AI away from all the techs leading to the republic for as long as possible.
Tukker said:
Let me be plain, I am talking about only the highest levels for the most part. I do not need to steal at monarch and emperor. That is not to say you never should, but it is not suppose to be needed.
For me stealing is the only way after the GL expires at Sid. I just will not be researching. At DG and Deity, it depends on how you are doing. If you are able to research then do it. If not then you have to either steal or extort as you won't often have much to trade. In that scenario and probably will be doing a fair amount of warring.
The thing is every game is not the same or we would not still be playing. So the EPA warning applies YMMV. It varies for me all the time. I do not get to do the same thing every game. These are just generalities.
So when I am stealing, it will go for anything that is most useful first. After that anything that is not a dead end (ironclad/amphip/demo). I will need all those required techs sooner or later, so I get them when I can.
Of course if I steal one and someone is around to trade it to, then great.
Chris Withers said:
there is a sort of an art to this. here is an example of how you might pull it off. you declare war on a distant power whom you have no ongoing trades/treaties with. this way you get no reputation hit. because the civ is distant you have a "phony war". now you buy off alliances against this power. ideally you want your war to be with someone both distant AND powerful. that way you can buy off MANY alliances against him without him being wiped out any time soon. now some of these ai's who ally against him break deals in the process and suffer reputation hits. eventually some may make peace again (getting another rep hit if less than 20 turns!). you buy off another alliance. you know what? you can do some major trashing of ai reputations this way. as their reputatations get worse the whole thing starts to get out of hand between them all: they just start getting irritable and warlike against each other. they are actually not that warlike against the player who was careful to keep his own so-called reputation intact.
