How to manage GP farm?

[podraza]

I have played most of my games with a GP farm, usually devoting a big food city spot to that purpose. I have a suspicion that it is not worth it. Now this may be because GP farms are not worth it in general, or it may be because I am not playing it right. I want to discuss both:

1. The benefits to a GP farm are clear. You get a bunch of great persons, they perform their various tricks. What about the opportunity cost? A big food city is a great spot to specialize in production or in commerce. How much is a big production city or a big commerce city worth as opposed to the great persons? I don't think a calculation is possible here, but I am starting to think my GP farms aren't the best use of high value real estate. Part of me thinks that if you are not philosophical, you should forego the idea and just build another commerce or production town.

2. Now maybe the reason I am so unhappy with my GP farms is that I don't know how to effectively manage them or incorporate them into my long term strategy. Here is what I do:

I find the spot to designate as GP farm. Usually it is near double fish or flood plains or something like that. I start improving the tiles, mostly farms, maybe one or two mines to help along buildings. I set the building queue to do the National Epic and then follow that up with all of the buildings that allow for extra specialists. I queue the buildings in order of which is cheapest first. This is only city I tend to automate, I tell the governor to emphasize great person growth (automate: bad move?)and then I leave it alone. Sometimes I come back to whip if there is unhappiness or sickness. Then I just sort of wait and see what pops out. It tends to be random and I put the GP towards the best use I can think of at the time. In other words, what GP results from the GP farm is not planned and is not part of any specific strategy. It probably should be. Should getting a specific GP justify working fewer specialists than you could be otherwise? If I really want an engineer, for example, should I have the GP farm work only the one engineer specialist available to me and forego the others? That seems a terrible waste, but otherwise I'll get nothing but artists and prophets.

Thoughts and suggestions?

 

[Thedrin]

(automate: bad move?)

Always. You may wish to do it to save yourself time but don't expect to see the best results.

That's not to say that you'll find great people farms useful if you do manage them yourself.

 

[Thedrin]

In other words, what GP results from the GP farm is not planned and is not part of any specific strategy. It probably should be.

Great people farms work best as part of a long term strategy. Not to produce the great person type that you want now but to produce one great person type more than all others over the entire game (though you may wish to change strategy mid game). I wouldn't bother with a great people farm unless I was looking to generate many of one type of specialist, usually to be used in combination with the ordinary specialists. Otherwise I'd imagine I'd find myself in the same situation as you've been finding yourself.

 

[Wodan]

First off, these are just my thoughts. YMMV (your mileage may vary).

1. The benefits to a GP farm are clear. You get a bunch of great persons, they perform their various tricks.

And, you get them earlier.

What about the opportunity cost? A big food city is a great spot to specialize in production or in commerce. How much is a big production city or a big commerce city worth as opposed to the great persons? I don't think a calculation is possible here, but I am starting to think my GP farms aren't the best use of high value real estate. Part of me thinks that if you are not philosophical, you should forego the idea and just build another commerce or production town.

Look at it this way: consider your GP farm to be simply a specialized commerce city.

Say you put all scientists. What's going to happen? You're going to be whomping in a buttload of research in addition to the GPP you're generating. Do you really lose that much when compared to that same city with cottages? Not really. Early on, you actually make more. Later, you make a bit less, but not terribly much so. I would suggest that the early benefit is much more important than the later game, anyway.

So, for a research city, a scientist GP farm is almost always better than cottages.

Say you put all merchants. If you're running a CE, you're actually going to have a much better money city with a merchant GP farm than you would with cottages. Your slider is set at 80-90%, so most of the commerce is going to research, which is exactly the opposite of what you want in a money city. This is true both early and late game.

If you have a SE, then we need to know whether you're running the slider at 0/0/100 (max gold) or whether you need to run at a percentage of research and/or culture (for happiness). Even here, however, it's nice to have the flexibility and allow yourself the ability to move the slider around during the game... that's part of the strength of a SE... and thus it is better to avoid trying to run a money city with cottages. Use merchants instead.

So, for a money city, a merchant GP farm is ALWAYS better than cottages.

(Shrines mess this up, because you can't choose where to put your shrine. It may be a good idea to have your super-money city, with Wall Street, where you have a shrine, and to forego a money GP farm. Instead, do a scientist GP farm or engineer GP farm.)

Now, what about artists? I advocate this only if going for a cultural victory. In this case, we don't care so much about commerce. What we really want is to maximize the number of Great Artists. So, let's skip this.

What about priests (prophets)? This is a little wonky, because the benefit of Great Prophets is in making shrines (= money!) plus if you have Angkor Wat, you get buttloads of production in this city. So, let's skip this one too.

You may read this and think I'm advocating running a SE. This has nothing to do with a SE... this is comparing a GP farm (which you can have only one of) to the alternative, which is a cottage commerce city (which you can have any number of).

The real question we're asking is whether to combine your GP farm and your super-science city (with Oxford) or your super-money city (Wall Street), or whether to put those national wonders into a cottage city. Personally, I think it's always superior to combine them. If you're running a CE, it's probably always better to make your GP farm a super-money city (with Wall Street) -- I'd do this in your capitol (which is one of the few reasons to have your GP farm in your capitol) -- and to put Oxford into a cottage city. However, you'll get a lot of great merchants, which may not be desirable depending on your strategy.

If you're running a SE, I think it's probably always better to put Oxford into your GP farm with scientists, and wall street into your capitol.

2. Now maybe the reason I am so unhappy with my GP farms is that I don't know how to effectively manage them or incorporate them into my long term strategy. Here is what I do:

I find the spot to designate as GP farm.

First, off, let's say NOT your capitol. Let's get that out of the way right now. It's almost never a good idea to have your capitol be your GP farm. (One of the few exceptions is if you want a merchant GP farm.)

Why? Because a GP farm needs farms. One of the big benefits of your capitol is running Bureaucracy, which runs on commerce, which comes mostly from cottages. farms and cottages are mutually exclusive.

You can do a merchant GP farm in your capitol, a production GP farm with engineers in your capitol (really difficult), or a production GP farm with priests and Angkor Wat (which depends on successfully getting the wonder). Other people may have other strategies, but these are the only reasons I personally even consider putting a GP farm into my capitol. Any other purpose is going to cost me more commerce/research than it is worth.

Usually it is near double fish or flood plains or something like that. I start improving the tiles, mostly farms, maybe one or two mines to help along buildings. I set the building queue to do the National Epic and then follow that up with all of the buildings that allow for extra specialists.

Stop here. I would suggest that you choose which type of specialist you prefer to get. This will vary from game to game.

If running caste system, then you have some flexibility here. If not, then you need to prioritize what buildings (that allow specialists) you produce.

For example, a good scienstist GP farm will have Library, Oxford, Observatory. That allows 6 scientists.

Running the odd Engineer (etc) can be a good idea but I would be wary of diluting too much, as you say you have been doing.

I queue the buildings in order of which is cheapest first. This is only city I tend to automate, I tell the governor to emphasize great person growth (automate: bad move?)and then I leave it alone.

Generally I manage this myself. It's only one city, and thus it gives me much more control at minimal time required.

Sometimes I come back to whip if there is unhappiness or sickness. Then I just sort of wait and see what pops out. It tends to be random and I put the GP towards the best use I can think of at the time. In other words, what GP results from the GP farm is not planned and is not part of any specific strategy. It probably should be. Should getting a specific GP justify working fewer specialists than you could be otherwise?

Usually. For example, Great Prophets are great if you have a shrine that needs building, or early in the game when prophets lightbulb good techs. Later in the game, prophetss are much less useful than almost any other type of GP.

In addition, your GP farm will only be able to support so many specialists. I personally find it more useful to devote a few citizens to working mines or farms (with whipping), which allows me to produce a wonder or two in this city. If you choose the wonder based on what type of GP you want to get, this too will help.

If I really want an engineer, for example, should I have the GP farm work only the one engineer specialist available to me and forego the others? That seems a terrible waste, but otherwise I'll get nothing but artists and prophets.

Engineers are the hardest to make. You only get one engineer specialist early on (Forge) and more later (Factory). Ironworks can help. So can Pyramids, Great Wall, Hagia Sophia. This type of GP farm is best IMO to be a mix of farms and mines rather than all farms like other types. You'll reduce the overall numbers of GP you get, but you'll get more great engineers which are very valuable.

Wodan

 

[podraza]

Thank you Wodan. Both you and Thedrin suggested I gear my GP farm towards one type of specialist. I can't believe I never thought of that. I figured the point was to crank out as many GPs as fast as possible. No, that is not the point, nor should it be. That is stupid.

I've never read the strategy article on the Super Science City, although I've seen that article floating around. Maybe I should read it. It had never occured to me to make my GP farm a scientist farm and to use Oxford with it. I always put Oxford in my biggest commerce city, which is usually the capital. Maybe I'll go read it right now.

 

[Wodan]

Yep, Oxford allows 3 extra scientists. That's huge in a GP farm, especially if you want to run Slavery or Emancipation.

Research is sugh a big part of the game that I almost always do this. In fact, when I start a new game, I pretty much send out a warrior or scout and say to myself, "okay, where to put my GP farm super-science city...?"

Do that a few times, and you'll get a feel for what works. And, you'll have the skills to experiment further with a merchant GP farm or whatever.

Wodan

 

[podraza]

Yep, Oxford allows 3 extra scientists. That's huge in a GP farm, especially if you want to run Slavery or Emancipation.

Research is sugh a big part of the game that I almost always do this. In fact, when I start a new game, I pretty much send out a warrior or scout and say to myself, "okay, where to put my GP farm super-science city...?"

Do that a few times, and you'll get a feel for what works. And, you'll have the skills to experiment further with a merchant GP farm or whatever.

Wodan

Hmm.

It seems that I am going to have to pick sides in the CE v SE debate one of these days. I've been ignoring it thus far, going with cottages, and choosing not to think about it. I have enough on my plate that I am learning.

But it seems that there are those who would argue with the very premise of the Science City as you have described it. They would rather see a farm that produces great scientists, but only for those great scientists to then be made into academy/super specialists in a seperate, super cottage town.

 

[svv]

If you're running a CE, it's probably always better to make your GP farm a super-money city (with Wall Street) -- I'd do this in your capitol (which is one of the few reasons to have your GP farm in your capitol) -- and to put Oxford into a cottage city.

I'd make the merchant/GP farm the city where you have shrines of major religions. If that's your capital (because you founded early religions before your second city), yes make that your religion/money/gp city. But, if you founded later religions, then your religion/money/gp city (where you have Wall Street) should be where your major religious shrine is.

I tend to have two GP farms. One my science city, where I'll have Oxford and cottages but also some wonders and some science specialists, and one my religion/money city, where I'll have lots of farmland and priests and/or merchant specialists.

 

[Wodan]

It seems that I am going to have to pick sides in the CE v SE debate one of these days. I've been ignoring it thus far, going with cottages, and choosing not to think about it. I have enough on my plate that I am learning.

But it seems that there are those who would argue with the very premise of the Science City as you have described it. They would rather see a farm that produces great scientists, but only for those great scientists to then be made into academy/super specialists in a seperate, super cottage town.

It's 6 of one, half dozen of the other. And, most of this doesn't have anything to do with SE vs CE.

Take a GP farm built around scientists. You are making X beakers.
A nearby cottage city with the civ running at, say, 80%, makes Y beakers.

Where to put Oxford? If you're running Caste System, then it's a simple choice of whether X > Y or not. (Keeping in mind that Y will probably outpace X if the game runs on a long time.)

If you're not running caste system, then I'd say Oxford HAS to go into the GP farm. Either that or give up on having a GP farm that will produce scientists.

(Note that many CEs run caste system purely to benefit the GP farm. After getting Observatories and after the GPs have slowed down, they switch away from Caste System and probably Pacifism and retask the city to something else. Basically producing a dozen great scientists and then giving up on the GP farm.)

I'd make the merchant/GP farm the city where you have shrines of major religions. If that's your capital (because you founded early religions before your second city), yes make that your religion/money/gp city. But, if you founded later religions, then your religion/money/gp city (where you have Wall Street) should be where your major religious shrine is.

Well I did mention that shrines mess this up.

Personally I find that unless I go for an early religion (and thus it ends up in my capitol) then shrines end up in a very non-optimal location. Here's what happens. I found cities in the tasty spots, then I expand and get the less nice spots. Eventually, I get Philosophy or Code of Laws and found a religion. It invariably goes into the later-founded cities, which are the ones that are supremely unsuited to be money cities.

So it becomes a question of making my super-money city to be a good city with tons of cottages/merchants and probably a river, or one that is pretty much depending upon the Shrine as its only source of money. Ultiimately the answer to this question depends on whether you're spamming missionaries or not. But, the shrine is going to have to get pretty damn good before it passes your top money city.

I tend to have two GP farms. One my science city, where I'll have Oxford and cottages but also some wonders and some science specialists, and one my religion/money city, where I'll have lots of farmland and priests and/or merchant specialists.

How do you keep one GP farm from outpacing the other?

Wodan

 

[Thedrin]

On shrines, prophets and Wall St.

If I have a merchant city I always build Wall St. there rather than a shrine city. I've never seen a shrine produce more than 70 base gold (high, 40 is a more usual figure). A city running 7 merchant specialists (market+grocer+Wall St.) puts out 21 gold. Settling pairs of great merchants in the city gives 12 gold (and 1 extra citizen) Six settled great merchants give a city with a higher base gold than most shrines (57) and a further two give almost as much as I've ever seen from a shrine (69). To get a shrine's gold that high requires building lots of missionaries. To get the shrine and the merchant base gold production this high requires very little effort on the part of the merchant city and lots on the part of the shrine.

Similarly, I may use one great prophet to build a shrine (if it's well spread without my effort). Other wise I settle them either in an already high production city or in a great prophet farm which will be destined to have massive output. The major advantage with priest cities is that they produce almost as much gold as merchants and almost as much production as engineers making them great cities for warmongers. The problems with these cities is that they are difficult to achieve due to the effort required to allow multiple priest specialists and that I can never decide which national wonders to build in them (lots of viable options).

Edit, oh and I think a great engineer city is a waste of time.

 

[patagonia]

The major advantage with priest cities is that they produce almost as much gold as merchants and almost as much production as engineers making them great cities for warmongers. The problems with these cities is that they are difficult to achieve due to the effort required to allow multiple priest specialists and that I can never decide which national wonders to build in them (lots of viable options).

If you've gone priest-happy when it comes to great people (and with religions, shrines and Angkor Wat, they're the easiest to recruit a lot of relatively early in the game), there's some really nice synergy between Wall Street and the Ironworks. You get the financial boost to priest income and the production boost to their hammers, making such a city potentially very lucrative in a number of ways.

 

[lilnev]

I sometimes end up with my capitol as my GP farm if I've built 2-3 early wonders there. It doesn't play well with Bureaucracy, but it's still sometimes the right choice. If I get to Lit and feel pressure to complete the Great Library fairly quickly, and I don't have another good site, I'll put it in the capitol and then build the National Epic there. 2 early wonders + GL + NE = 26 GPP/turn without picking up any citizens.

More often, a captured capitol becomes an ideal site. They usually come with food resources, and often with wonders too! Plus many of the AIs will have built farms for you rather than cottages. Stupid AIs.

In general, I would stress the value of having the Great Library in your GP farm if at all possible.

Finally, I don't usually try too hard to control my GP type, except for the first 1 or 2. Wonders often pollute my pool, and I like Slavery and Emancipation too much to use Caste System. 2 scientists, and engineer, and some merchants -- if you know the tech preferences, you can generally find a useful lightbulb.

peace,
lilnev

 

[ThomasHardy]

Well, if you put the GP farm on an area with mostly grass and farm almost all of it, how much are you losing? You aren't losing production, because it would be a lousy production city anyway. It's not your best cottage city either, because you can use flood plains for that.

There's nothing to lose by making a GP farm and everything to gain. Even if it's not the perfect GP farm, it's better than not having one at all.