How to provoke - Other Civ to Declare War to you?

[ashley26ph2003]

Any tips to provoke Other Civs declare war so you have no wargomening note
when you are ready to fight

 

[docbud]

You can try denouncing them, telling them to quit settling cities near you, to quit spying on you, and if you have a great general, plop a citadel and steal some of their land.

That doesn't necessarily mean they will declare war on you, but if they don't like you to begin with, it may work.

 

[joncnunn]

Any tips to provoke Other Civs declare war so you have no wargomening note
when you are ready to fight

Actually having the AI think your not ready to fight is the easyist way to do so. (Of course if your really not ready ...)

Strength of your military vs his is the highest factor the AI considers. (It does however undervalue ranged units so it's calculations are actually off)

If it thinks your too strong but doesn't like you it will first denounce you and then propose a stronger AI joint attack you but will otherwise let your insults to him go.

To make the AI hate you:

1. Choose a different ideology from the one he's adopted.

2. Vote against resolutions that he proposes.

3. Propose resolutions that he hates (only works if his resolution fails).

4. DOF the AIs in which he's denounced.

5. Denounce the AIs which he's DOFed.

6. Denounce him.

7. Demand he stop spying against you.

8. Demand that stop trying to convert your cities (you have to wait for him to use a Missionary or GP first).

9. Ask that he not settle next to you

10. By any means acquire more than 150% of the total number of cities he has, including one near him so he also gets land envy in addition to thinking your settling too aggressively.

11. Have your spy against him get caught.

12. Spread your religion to him (if he's founded a religion)

13. Build a wonder that he was trying to build.

14. Make his city state ally your ally.

15. Bully city states he's pledged to protect.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Have cash to upgrade your units but dont do it but as the poster above said, tell the other civ to stop doing things. You could also demand luxuries and cities to provoke. Then when they declare war upgrade your units and get sone xp when you halt their offensive then take the battle to him.

Playing a game right now as Venice and France, ny closest neighbor had the top ranked army, I had the lowest ranked but plenty of cash. The few units I did have was enough to slow him down allowing me to buy a new unit each turn. So 5-6 turns later France had the lowest ranked army and I the 3rd best ( of 8) and he eventually agreed to give me Lyon, the city I wanted all the time

 

[noonex]

AFAIK the biggest warmonger penalty goes from capturing cities, not from DOW on those who you clearly hate.

 

[subroto]

Yup in terms of relations does not matter who DOW who..if you capture cities you would be hated by the closest neigboor to that city...the more cities you take the worse your diplomatic hit will be unless the war is with a warmonger.. you can see this when you cursor on a city whether it is major or minor hit if you take that city.

 

[joncnunn]

AFAIK the biggest warmonger penalty goes from capturing cities, not from DOW on those who you clearly hate.

Actually in both Vanilla and G&K there was no warmonger penalty for capturing a city at all unless this was their last city.

Yup in terms of relations does not matter who DOW who..if you capture cities you would be hated by the closest neigboor to that city...the more cities you take the worse your diplomatic hit will be unless the war is with a warmonger.. you can see this when you cursor on a city whether it is major or minor hit if you take that city.

Nearest neighbor not liking you after capturing a city is NOT warmonger, that is land envy. They already envyed that land, but previously that was directed at the previous owner and now it's you that owns the land that conquer.

Actually the algorithm in BNW is 1 / N . (Consider N to be their preconquest value.) When N is 1 it's exactly the same massive penalty that it was in vanilla and G&K

If they started with 8 cities, you can take quite a few cities and it still won't add up to what the warmonger penalty would be taking somebody's second to last city let alone taking the very last one.

 

[Trackmaster]

The problem with relying on the AI to initiate war is that they'll usually only do it if they think that they can win. If they see you as having the upper hand and you try to provoke them, they'll just be angry with you, make life difficult, but still not DOW.

 

[beetle]

Nice comprehensive list joncnun!

Actually having the AI think your not ready to fight is the easiest way to do so. (Of course if your really not ready ...)
Strength of your military vs his is the highest factor the AI considers. (It does however undervalue ranged units so it's calculations are actually off)
If it thinks your too strong but doesn't like you it will first denounce you and then propose a stronger AI joint attack you but will otherwise let your insults to him go.

I get DoWed every game. It absolutely comes down to AI misunderestimating me. The only other thing I would add to the conversation so far is that, in addition to not factoring in rush buys, the AI does not appreciate the players ability to shift focus to producing effective units. So along with undervaluing range units and the players competence, and not accounting for terrain, the AI assigns no values to promotions. If I am looking to provoke a DOW, I will have all my units, which are not many, on the front line. Those units, and the nearby cities, devastate the initial wave, and I might not lose any. Johnny_rudeboy's experience is similar to my own.

Yup in terms of relations does not matter who DOW who.

I don't think that is correct. You get one free DOW against a CS, and one free DOW against an AI. But warmongering penalty for taking cities is much more a significant factor than warmonger penalty for 2nd (and any subsequent) DOWs.

Does anyone have approximate numerical values comparing warmongering penalty for 2nd DOW versus taking a city (from a multi-city opponent)?

 

[joncnunn]

I don't think that is correct. You get one free DOW against a CS, and one free DOW against an AI. But warmongering penalty for taking cities is much more a significant factor than warmonger penalty for 2nd (and any subsequent) DOWs.

Does anyone have approximate numerical values comparing warmongering penalty for 2nd DOW versus taking a city (from a multi-city opponent)?

No, that's a combined "Free" DOW against your choice of a major or a City State NOT one of each.
In addition, if an AI Defender of the Free World Civ is in the game (England), then even that one isn't free.
Conversely the "Do what you like" AIs (such as Mongolia) won't care how many times you DOW anybody as long as its neither them nor a civ they've DOFed nor a city state they've pledged to protect.

The formula for taking a city is 1 / N. (N number of cities they have including the one you just took [to avoid division by zero])

So, yes you'd get a bigger penalty taking somebody's second to last city than you would taking several cities away from someone with a big empire.

 

[beetle]

No, that's a combined "Free" DOW against your choice of a major or a City State NOT one of each.

I only have half a dozen BNW games under my belt, but the “free DOWs” mechanic (plural, so long as one and only one CS) seems very much in place. I am judging only from the mouse hover tool tip. Nothing shows up, even for the Civs that hate warmongers. Even the 2nd AI dow usually goes okay, if I liberate a city or two.

My subjective impression is that the subsequent DOWs get a “minor warmongering penalty” approximate equal to taking one city from a 4 or 5 city empire. As you note, some AI care more and some less.

But I sure would appreciate being correct from an authoritative perspective.

 

[DarkestOnion]

Denounce them. Forward settle them until they have no viable city sites. Make Demands of them regularly. Basically treat them like you are a high school bully and they are your victim. Best not to think too deeply on the ethics there, yikes.