How to react to a "possible" invasion

[vanatteveldt]

I was playing a bts immortal small med+small map and was in the early astronomy period as vikings - invading the weakest enemy for land and resources using berserkers, galleons, and frigates. When I was almost done I spotted a fleet of galleons and frigates from a neutral third party, that seemed to be heading in my general direction. I have circumnav plus trading post, so I can easily overtake them and sink some or all of their galleons.

This prompted me to ask the following question: since the cultural borders never spread far enough into the ocean to create a safe (ie not crossable in one galleon-turn) buffer area, it is preferable to find and sink an invasion force in international waters. However, if you are not at war yet you have to declare war on that rival, with consequences for diplomacy and WW.

What would you do? Declare war anyway and sink the bastards? Wait till they land and shoot em from the shore? get another country to declare on them and see if they turn around?

I would be nice to be able to claim sea borders or have some sort of "retreat those warships or I will see it as an act of war" diplomacy option... right now the naval situation is a bit like CIV1 (iirc) where you could just march to the enemy capital and then declare on the same turn as you attacked him....

Thanks,

-- Wouter

 

[InvisibleStalke]

I think it depends on your relative military power of land vs sea. Attacking at sea means you kill more units with each of yours - so its more efficient and likely to result in fewer of your casualties. But it might trigger defensive pacts and annoy their friends. If you have the land strength to easily combat whatever those galleons might be carrying I'd say let them land.

Also the AI is very stupid attacking coastal cities. If you can reinforce a coastal city with a few very good defenders (CG3 rifles for example), the AI won't land its stack, it will attack straight from the sea and suffer heavy losses.

So, if you are navy heavy and army weak and there are no defensive pacts in place, by all means sink their fleet.

 

[Bradlius]

I remember a discussion about this from a long time ago, but can't seem to find that thread. One "fix" I liked that was discussed was that enemy ships could not land troops in the same turn as a declaration of war -- they would have to declare, then wait to unload the next turn. Gives you time to try to sink them.
Given the game as it is, though, you have to decide. One thing you could try is to blockade them, if you have enough ships. They would have to declare, then when they try to go to shore, they have to engage your navy first. Of course, that could require a lot of ships, but even if you slow them down so they are just one square away from your land, that would be good enough.

 

[vanatteveldt]

Hmmm I have a decent military going (upgrading most berserks to amphibious riflemen), but most are around the weak guy's islands and a bit banged up. I have a couple turns to prepare my home continent but if those galleons are full with modern units (can't remember whether rival has riflemen too) I would not be sure I could handle them without difficulty. I could of course sail a lot of troops home but it would be a lot nicer if I can keep them on expedition...

 

[Refar]

If they can reach more than one coastal city i prefer preventive sinking.
If as you say you are not sure how stable your homeland defences are, sinking those is obviously the way to go.

A possible alternative is:
Ask the guy for a donation - 10 gold or such. If he gives in, you have 10 turns of "Can not declare War".
If his fleet arrives within those 10 turns, he will land his troos in your land (assuming open boarders)
Now you cancel OB. If your continent is completely covered by your culutre, his troops get bumped all the way back home...
If there is neutral land on your continent, they will land there... depending on where that is, it might be good or bad... So check it before trying...

 

[Coast]

I recall one time I was sneakily preparing to ambush/backstab my neighbour.. and my stack, moving towards ol' Genghis' borders, met a stack of his coming the opposite way.

Forced to the conclusion that he was about to do unto me as I was about to do unto him, I declared in advance and wiped that stack out.

 

[IAM]

If you gift the AI 10 gold won't that also give you the 10 turns of peace in BTS?

 

[Refar]

No, it has to be something they need to agree to. If you just gift it, it will not result in "can't declare war" - would be exploitable i guess, since the ai never refuses a gift.

 

[Solomwi]

I remember a discussion about this from a long time ago, but can't seem to find that thread. One "fix" I liked that was discussed was that enemy ships could not land troops in the same turn as a declaration of war -- they would have to declare, then wait to unload the next turn. Gives you time to try to sink them.
Given the game as it is, though, you have to decide. One thing you could try is to blockade them, if you have enough ships. They would have to declare, then when they try to go to shore, they have to engage your navy first. Of course, that could require a lot of ships, but even if you slow them down so they are just one square away from your land, that would be good enough.

Until war is declared, they can move right through your blockade. The only place a blockade would work is inside your cultural borders, since they'd have to declare before moving into them (OB of course, may opens up some other possibilities for getting around the blockade, too). It's entirely possible I'm just misunderstanding you or not thinking about one crucial detail, but if you do mean something like the old CivIII-style blockades, it can't be done in peacetime.

vanatteveldt:

I've had situations that went each way. I've had a strong naval presence off a relative backwater that was weakly defended and didn't have help available soon enough to save it, where I struck pre-emptively, and I've had times that my navy purposely parted like the Red Sea, because I had plenty of land units that could within a turn of the target city before the invaders came and I wanted the extra XP, either for a GG or just to hone my army a bit before the war I was planning next.

The key questions to ask are: What's the risk of losing a city to the invaders if I let them through? If that happens, how quickly can I retake the city, and at what cost? What are the diplomatic costs of a pre-emptive strike? Do I have enough local naval advantage to take out the whole invasion flotilla? Can I generate enough local land advantage to account for the number of invaders I'm likely to see? Am I likely to have a unit-to-unit advantage either on land or at sea? Each of these has various sub-questions, and the list is definitely not exhaustive, but it's a good start. Also keep in mind that the AI may be coming in waves, so even if you can sink this one, beefing up the city defenses if needed may not be a bad idea.

To your last point, I prefer it the way it is. Sneak attacks make the game more exciting, and mean you have to be constantly vigilant, especially from Astronomy on. Knowing I'd have a turn to wipe out their ships before any enemy stack could land would make defending my empire too easy. Just park a naval squadron every so many tiles and leave those cities completely undefended, or send them a token archer for happiness purposes. There are plenty of ways to extend your vision beyond your borders, especially at sea, so the element of surprise should be allowed when it can be achieved. Besides, I hate for my own units to be sitting ducks for a turn, and squeezing that last movement point to maximize the effect of surprise gives me great joy.