How to secure GE for Leaning Tower of Pisa?
- Thread starter Lunco
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It's definitely viable up to Immortal. On Deity I'd feel less comfy but if you can get 3+ really good cities (or two with mountain at cap) it should probably work without putting you too far behind. No Deity expert though.
budweiser
King of the Beers
This is what I do. See, BNW is ALL about the machines. Watch the intro to have it spelled out: machines enhance the labor of man. A civ with machines will get the stuff first.
So, an early GE point wonder is nice, plus a workshop. Then you will be ready to grab most of the renaissance wonders.
goodolarchie
Warlord
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'Mids are usually sure bet on Deity. If you are going tall (and hence tradition), grabbing Mining >> Archery for ToA and starting with scout >> worker is another solid bet if you can pre-chop 3-4 forests in your border. I have only seen a handful of games where mids go before T70 since the AI rarely goes Liberty, and ToA is mid-40's at the earliest. It's even worth the one point, since you're ultimately getting a "free" GE and two workers.
I'm a fan of the Pyramids route myself, since ToA has to replace those crucial early builds like settler, caravan, archers.
I'm a fan of the Pyramids route myself, since ToA has to replace those crucial early builds like settler, caravan, archers.
Martin Alvito
Real men play SMAC
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Don't. Go straight to Printing Press after popping the Renaissance via Acoustics/Astronomy, hard build Pisa and throw the resulting GE at Porcelain Tower if you think you might miss it. As long as you grew enough to stay ahead on the tech curve and pay the pittances necessary to keep the AIs busy fighting one another, you'll finish the Pisa build in BNW.
You can't go up to Scientific Theory without Printing Press, and the only thing you're really missing out on (Cultural games excepted) by delaying Architecture is a Bank.
You can't go up to Scientific Theory without Printing Press, and the only thing you're really missing out on (Cultural games excepted) by delaying Architecture is a Bank.
Yea, that's what I usually do, but sometimes there's an AI that's either really ahead or just beelining it for some reason and I miss out by couple of turns. That's why I asked, thought it would be cool if there's a way to secure it.
With the Metal Casting start, do you go up to University first or just NC?
With the Metal Casting start, do you go up to University first or just NC?
Deau
Emperor
Depends on your difficulty level and start quality. ToA/Stonehenge/Petra all produce GE points and any 2 of them should get you 100 GPP well before the 2 scientists slots from education pop a GS.
Otherwise, with any one of the above 3 wonders, you can beeline workshops right out of education, work the engineer specialist INSTEAD of a science specialist and manage it. It typically means slightly lowering your science to control all cities but it is manageable.
However, you may want to review the GPP math mechanics because if you pop another GE from pisa with your GE, it takes a loooooong time for the 25% to pay itself off (due to GPP cost increase) and is rarely worth it unless you need the added benefit to push, say, a CV's GAMW production
Martin Alvito
Real men play SMAC
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It irks me when a 'free' GP comes with a cost such as bumping the GPP level. This smacks of marketing deceit. Next thing you know, we'll be paying upkeep on our 'free' cultural buildings and Aqueducts from Tradition.
But in any event, I agree that feeding a GE to Pisa to generate another GE is generally a bad idea.
budweiser
King of the Beers
NC at most. 3-4 cities with good growth and just libs should do the trick. Liberty>Mids>MC is probably optimal.
I dont agree at all here - if u get Pisa by hardbuilding it game is won allready and u can start a new one
This is definatly not a good advice for a newer player struggling to win. Maybe I do refer only to deity here But in fact it s same for all difficulties - if your leading tech and production at this point ai will never catch up.
Not if you aim for CV and just want faster artists and writers...
Leaning Tower is a fairly low priority for the AI to build.
If your capital has good production you can easily hand-build it. (If your capital's production sucks, then you have more important things to build than world wonders anyway and I'd simply rely on a faith based GE from having completed Tradition for PT.)
If your capital has good production you can easily hand-build it. (If your capital's production sucks, then you have more important things to build than world wonders anyway and I'd simply rely on a faith based GE from having completed Tradition for PT.)
Deau
Emperor
I'm not sure what you are criticising here. Using Pisa to pop a GE delays the timing on each early/planted GSs from GPPs and kills snowball effect from them. So outside CV, if you GE pisa, at least do it for something else than a GE as otherwise you are really just hurting yourself.
1.5-3 GPP for 100-150 turns does not cover for the fact that the last GS you need to match the same output as without pisa. If you normally hit 7 GE/GS (1GE 6 GS) on a regular play and use GE to pisa a GE, in order to get 6 GSs still, you effectively need to generate an extra 800 GS GPP, let alone, as mentioned, that every earlier GSs will kick in slightly later at each point in time.
So besides for CV, your GE would generally be best spent NOT on pisa and simply rushing whatever other wonder you would otherwise have used your 2nd GE on. This is somewhat reducing the effect in not giving weight to the GAMW GPPs for non CV but still, to anyone still struggling on their current difficulty, GE pisa to GE is a terrible way to help improve their mid game science gap closing.
Martin Alvito
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An argument which entirely fails to justify burning a GE to increment the GPP counter solely for 25% faster GPP generation in the future. If you're lagging in tech, you want to pass on Pisa, rush Architecture and throw the GE at Porcelain before an AI builds it. Losing out on 25% GPP empire-wide stinks, but at worst you're delaying victory by a few turns. If you got to Architecture fast enough to pop the GE, that delay shouldn't be decisive and the RA boost should offset the delay in any event.
I can see it in a CV, but not for this reason. If you're playing CV, you clearly want to go up to Architecture sooner rather than later. In that case, you'll be late to Pisa and you're going to have to throw a GE at it if you want it. That said, I think you'd be better served burning the GE on Uffizi since the AIs seem to prioritize it, and hard build Hermitage/PT instead once you reach Architecture.
You guys are missing Tommy's point entirely. I don't know why some of the people are saying that the AI ignore Pisa, because that's complete bologna, and the point that Tommy is making is that Pisa is a "special" wonder. It's not virtually impossible to get like say Notre Dame or Great Library but if you can hard build it on Deity then your start must have been INSANE. You'd need a ton of production and food. Salt, strong Incan start, lots of Stone, etc. You basically have to grow really big really fast but still have a lot of raw hammers in your Cap to pump it out. A bunch of river plains isn't going to cut it. All Tommy is saying is that where you have those God-realm starts it doesn't matter what you do because you can't lose. The only reason to play those games is to see how low you can go. There's no challenge or skill needed, you can just kind of mindlessly play and destroy the AI. So yeah, go for it, hard build Pyras and Henge and Pisa and whatever. Doesn't matter because the game was over by turn 1.
Anyways, what this means is that you should basically just ignore Pisa in most Deity games. Going all-in on wonders if you don't know what you're doing is going to backfire hard. Some are more obtainable than others and Pisa is definitely one of the harder ones. If you're a new player who's trying to cut his chops then you're probably better off ignoring it. Sistine Chapel is much easier to get for example and it comes at roughly the same time. If you wanted something generically good to build in the Rene era then that's probably your best bet. It also comes with risks, not saying otherwise, but it's much more reasonable by comparison. I always try and pick the low-hanging fruit because it's going to pan out ~35-40% of the time and that's not bad all things considered. Still, trying to durdle your way to Pisa is just not going to work consistently.
Anyways, what this means is that you should basically just ignore Pisa in most Deity games. Going all-in on wonders if you don't know what you're doing is going to backfire hard. Some are more obtainable than others and Pisa is definitely one of the harder ones. If you're a new player who's trying to cut his chops then you're probably better off ignoring it. Sistine Chapel is much easier to get for example and it comes at roughly the same time. If you wanted something generically good to build in the Rene era then that's probably your best bet. It also comes with risks, not saying otherwise, but it's much more reasonable by comparison. I always try and pick the low-hanging fruit because it's going to pan out ~35-40% of the time and that's not bad all things considered. Still, trying to durdle your way to Pisa is just not going to work consistently.
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