How to 'sell' Vox Populi

tu_79 · Mar 4, 2018

Hi, guys,

I love this mod, but somehow I'm having troubles to convince my friends, even those who are into strategy games, to try it. Part of my problem is that I need to translate most of the features into my language. It sounds silly, but I'm used to think in terms of war weariness, unit supply limit, skirmishers, battlecruisers and such. And while I'm explaining, I have to remember what's the best translation for weariness (¿fatiga? ¿cansancio?), skirmisher (¿hostigador? ¿escaramuzador? both sound weird in spanish), and even those that are easier to translate take a few seconds (battlecruiser = crucero de batalla). Normally this is not a problem, but because I don't really know what may be the best points, trying to figure it out while translating makes me speak very very slowly. This is something I expected to happen when trying to speak in english, not the opposite.
Anyways.

I'd like to compile a good set of reasons to play Vox Populi, along with some of the most flashy features. Each one has his own reasons, so maybe you can help me giving a couple of reasons why *you* love playing this mod.

Also, about the flashiest features, sometimes I'm having troubles to remember which ones were from vanilla, and which ones are from the mod. Specially the latter, since I didn't play with vanilla in a long long time, and some of the earliest features from Community Patch Project sounds like vanilla features to me, now.

ryanmusante · Mar 4, 2018

The VP game concepts are good to begin with. Translation via Bing.

Spoiler Game Concepts :

tu_79 · Mar 4, 2018

Thanks. Not asking for a translation really, but I get the point to look at the Wiki.

So, are those the flashiest features? Recap:
- New city state diplomacy, with diplomatic units, city state quests and city state coups d'etat.
- Vassallage, peaceful or forced, where the liege protects and the vassal provides.
- Monopolies, special bonus for controling a resource market.
- Corporations, late game powerful trading buildings based on monopolies.
- New unit lines: scouts reworked, ranged mobile added.
- New units to fill the gap: a different unit for each era.
- New buildings and wonders: more options, more replayability.
- Reworked happiness system: based on city needs and comparative grievance.
- Reworked war system: supply limits and war weariness affects combat and economy.
- Optional events, to spice things up.

I'd also think that these features are worthy:
- Completely balanced and interesting civ uniques.
- Reworked techs, social policies, world congress resolutions, religious beliefs, great people actions and unit promotions, so every decision is meaningful and playable.
- Powerful AI that knows how to play and win. Powerful tactical combat AI that knows how to fight in several fronts and fool the player.
- Scalable difficulty, making the game more difficult every passing era.
- Player exploits free. No shortcuts to victory.
- Almost every start and every map is fully playable.
- Reworked trade routes: provide more yields and tourism, more tactical set ups.
- Enhanced tile improvements: adjacency bonus for farms, trade route bonus for villages (former trading posts), and more.

And also worth mentioning:
- Development is a compromise between player likings and AI capabilities. Tested thoroughly during more than two years (three?), with a focus on single player. Now in the final bug fixing and balance tweaks phase.
- Community is friendly and responsive.

Maybe not worth mentioning until your friend actually tries the game:
- Siege units no longer have to be deployed, but they are slower on enemy territory.
- Ranged ships are strong but short ranged. Certainly not OP.
- Coastal cities are connected with a lighthouse in Classical age.
- Without an army worth of the name you'll probably die.
- Focusing on science since the beginning is not a great idea.
- Even if you don't pursue a diplomatic victory, you should befriend city states and secure some alliances.
- Melee units can be used against cities. Surrounding them is useful.
- You have not beaten the game yet, wait until you see the victory screen, late game is very demanding.
- The civ you are playing is not overpowered. They all seem strong compared to vanilla.
- You don't need to conquer the whole world for a domination victory, only capitals. You need an ideology for a cultural victory. You need Telecommunications technology for the diplomatic victory poll, and Flight for preventing cultural victory.

My other question, why we play this mod?
Personally, I like the immense replayability. Many play styles and strategies are valid and interesting. Sometimes I spend several minutes considering if this time I'll be better with Statecraft or Artistry. Even leveling up ranged units is mentally demanding, do I need more long ranged healers or will I dare to send archers deep into enemy territory. I appreciate how AI fights and collaborates, keeping me busy enough, but for me, the selling point is the extreme and well thought balance in everything, and how often the player faces a meaningful decision.

LukaSlovenia29 · Mar 4, 2018

My advice is to maybe "video" yourself or take screenshots of the most interesting stuff to present them with visual evidence. Things like the AI attacking you with a cunning strategy etc.

Enginseer · Mar 4, 2018

You just need to address the problems of Civ 5 and say how Vox Populi literally makes those problems solutions. They're a lot easier to sell like (mountain cities? How is that even possible!) or unlocking a spy immediately at the ancient era or always being able to found a religion.

LukaSlovenia29 · Mar 4, 2018

I also think once we'll have a finished version (or a golden version), we'll be able to put together, as a community, something great to invite people to play VP. So if not sooner, you'll be able to wow them then.

ryanmusante · Mar 4, 2018

This is good for anyone to have as an explanation of overall additions to VP, simple terms. A+

Moi Magnus · Mar 4, 2018

I usually say something like:
+ Take the strongest civs (Poland, Korea, ...)
+ Take the strongest policies (Tradition, Rationnalisme, Freedom,...)
+ etc...
+ Buff them a little because they are still a bit weak.
+ Buff everything else to be at their power, while being balanced an leading to very different playstyles.
+ (Also, explain to the AI how to move and shoot with their ships during the same turn)
=> Vox Populi

Infixo · Mar 4, 2018

VP is just as Civ5 should be. Complex, full of features, challenging, with great AI.
If your friends like easy games, you’ll never convince them, because VP is all but easy. If they like challenge - they should already be playing it...

Stalker0 · Mar 4, 2018

The two most important points.

1) pure general balance. Policies and units especially.

2) huge AI improvements. For people that focus on single player games, it makes all the difference in the world.

Everything else is nice but to me thst is the core of what makes the mod so great

tu_79 · Mar 4, 2018

Infixo said:
VP is just as Civ5 should be. Complex, full of features, challenging, with great AI.
If your friends like easy games, you’ll never convince them, because VP is all but easy. If they like challenge - they should already be playing it...

I gave up on those that like simple games for this reason. Maybe it's worth to emphasize its complexity.

Deadstarre · Mar 4, 2018

Most of the actual balance changes are fairly subjective, whether or not Corporations have improved the game any is just a matter of taste / opinion and its not worth selling. anyone who enjoys vanilla BNW and has gotten good at it is probably interested in improved AI though, and you can get that with the base CP. if theyre already BNW fans, start with CP and if they notice / appreciate the changes that were made, theyre already in a position to trust that source to make further changes to their game and try VP. If theyve never played BNW or other civ games already, they probably arent going to start now.

Magean · Mar 4, 2018

I came to VP and sticked with it because it's balanced.

After some point I got bored with Vanilla BNW... when you know that science is king and there is really only one way to go most of time (tradition, rationalism), and that civs that are good at it are plain better than the rest, you lose interest. Some top-notch deity players are probably good enough to try fancy approaches and make them work, but I'm not part of them. To find challenge, I had to play at Immortal or Deity, in which case I could only compete using the well-known, standard "scientist turtle" approach. To try unusual strategies, I had to play at lower difficulty levels, but then I knew I wouldn't fail and there would be no challenge.

With VP I found a game in which every civ and every policy combination is viable in multiple ways. Some may be slightly OP or UP (there's no such thing as perfect balance), but not to the extent that there are flat-out dominant strategies that you feel bad not to use. As a consequence, VP has tremendous replayability. That's the main reason why I love VP, there's always something new to try.

I actually converted a friend of mine to VP, it was quite easy... And he wasn't even a Civ V veteran. We played a LAN game so I could walk him through the mod, with no "discouraging learning curve" effect. Admittedly, English wasn't a barrier so we didn't have your problem. For this educational game I purposely went tall and peaceful, so I could devote more of my attention to coaching my friend on a more "active" playstyle.

Now he's playing VP quite a lot, more than I do.

vyyt · Mar 4, 2018

If it is "selling" VP to the people who have some experience with Civ5 or Civ in general, then I think the best way is to pick the worst problems of Civ5 and show how VP solves them - as @Enginseer says above. Plus explaining what is the fun part. And it should be short, nobody should read/hear long lists of features.

If I had to pick 3, it would be:
1) The clever AI which does not embark units in front of your battleships, which is able to move and shoot in the same turn with ranged units, attack you at 2 fronts and protect its ranged units properly with melee in the front. AI, which makes its decisions based on the current situation rather than predetermined flavors.
2) Gradual and granular difficulty system which is nicely scaling: the AI bonuses are evenly spread throughout the game unlike in vanilla where the AI got all the advantages in the begining and you had to catch up. I particularly like the system of AI decision making when it ranks all possible decisions and then randomly chooses from the 2, 3, 4,... best ones based on the difficulty - this is a brilliantly simple way to make AI more or less clever.
3) Very good balancing of the different approaches in the beginning of the game (= you can be successful with playing wide or tall, peaceful or aggressive, choosing a suitable ancient policy tree.) Unlike in vanilla which was forcing you to a few proven strategies and which was punishing playing (too) wide.

Gazebo · Mar 4, 2018

I've long considered doing a 'welcome to VP' video. Maybe I should do a GoFundMe for one.

G

tu_79 · Mar 4, 2018

Magean said:
I came to VP and sticked with it because it's balanced.

After some point I got bored with Vanilla BNW... when you know that science is king and there is really only one way to go most of time (tradition, rationalism), and that civs that are good at it are plain better than the rest, you lose interest. Some top-notch deity players are probably good enough to try fancy approaches and make them work, but I'm not part of them. To find challenge, I had to play at Immortal or Deity, in which case I could only compete using the well-known, standard "scientist turtle" approach. To try unusual strategies, I had to play at lower difficulty levels, but then I knew I wouldn't fail and there would be no challenge.

With VP I found a game in which every civ and every policy combination is viable in multiple ways. Some may be slightly OP or UP (there's no such thing as perfect balance), but not to the extent that there are flat-out dominant strategies that you feel bad not to use. As a consequence, VP has tremendous replayability. That's the main reason why I love VP, there's always something new to try.

I actually converted a friend of mine to VP, it was quite easy... And he wasn't even a Civ V veteran. We played a LAN game so I could walk him through the mod, with no "discouraging learning curve" effect. Admittedly, English wasn't a barrier so we didn't have your problem. For this educational game I purposely went tall and peaceful, so I could devote more of my attention to coaching my friend on a more "active" playstyle.

Now he's playing VP quite a lot, more than I do.

Usually I'd follow this approach, but nowadays it's more difficult with the baby at home. He changes many things.

andersw · Mar 8, 2018

tu_79 said:
Hi, guys,

I love this mod, but somehow I'm having troubles to convince my friends, even those who are into strategy games, to try it. Part of my problem is that I need to translate most of the features into my language. It sounds silly, but I'm used to think in terms of war weariness, unit supply limit, skirmishers, battlecruisers and such. And while I'm explaining, I have to remember what's the best translation for weariness (¿fatiga? ¿cansancio?), skirmisher (¿hostigador? ¿escaramuzador? both sound weird in spanish), and even those that are easier to translate take a few seconds (battlecruiser = crucero de batalla). Normally this is not a problem, but because I don't really know what may be the best points, trying to figure it out while translating makes me speak very very slowly. This is something I expected to happen when trying to speak in english, not the opposite.
Anyways.

I'd like to compile a good set of reasons to play Vox Populi, along with some of the most flashy features. Each one has his own reasons, so maybe you can help me giving a couple of reasons why *you* love playing this mod.

Also, about the flashiest features, sometimes I'm having troubles to remember which ones were from vanilla, and which ones are from the mod. Specially the latter, since I didn't play with vanilla in a long long time, and some of the earliest features from Community Patch Project sounds like vanilla features to me, now.

I've scratched a bit on the surface and a few things are strikingly better than Civ5.

Techtree, there is a big variety in where you can go through the techtree (compared to civ 5 where you 99/100 just wanted to beline libraries and then universities.
AI will not endlessly conga line their units into your missile defences (also less strong archers makes melee units more viable).
Religious balance.
Leader balance.
Beware of AI's that have their UU!

Sierra Wander · May 7, 2018

This has actually been an interesting read. I stumbled upon VP through some googling for better AI and it seemed like it was worth a go, particularly as some of the balance changes being discussed appeal to me. However, from the perspective of someone who is completely uninitiated (intending to play my first game with it tomorrow), it seems like a much clearer list of changes and where things diverge would help a lot.

I came across the wiki which is somewhat helpful but it seems like there's been a massive amount of changes which can be quite intimidating, and statements in the wiki such as "This mod completely overhauls the game by rebalancing or creating new..." and then going onto list things comes off more like advertising buzz than actually explaining why these changes have happened. Stuff being said in this thread has given me a much greater insight, as people list why these balance changes have a positive impact. I really appreciate your second post tu_79 because it's been a nice breakdown. To me it's not enough to say "this mod is more complex" or "this mod has new features" because complexity and additional features do not necessarily make a game better (and again, kind of come off as buzzwords) - the stuff about the balance and the viability of a multitude of strategies rather than having to stick rigidly to pre-existing strategies because they are so much more superior to the alternatives is what sounds most appealing to me.

So from the perspective of someone who has been sold on trying VP from a bit of a scan around the forums, I'd say the elements that appeal most to me are the improved AI and rebalancing that increases the viability of a multitude of strategies rather than having a situation of a handful of clear cut superior strategies. The post by vyyt was particularly helpful with the examples included of how these changes are implemented. I do think the examples that highlight problems with vanilla Civ5 are good selling points, because at the end of the day if you're gonna play VP you already like Civ5, you just want something that improves upon it and helps redress some of the issues that can hinder the enjoyment of it.

pza · May 8, 2018

Sierra Wander said:
This has actually been an interesting read. I stumbled upon VP through some googling for better AI and it seemed like it was worth a go, particularly as some of the balance changes being discussed appeal to me. However, from the perspective of someone who is completely uninitiated (intending to play my first game with it tomorrow), it seems like a much clearer list of changes and where things diverge would help a lot.

I came across the wiki which is somewhat helpful but it seems like there's been a massive amount of changes which can be quite intimidating, and statements in the wiki such as "This mod completely overhauls the game by rebalancing or creating new..." and then going onto list things comes off more like advertising buzz than actually explaining why these changes have happened. Stuff being said in this thread has given me a much greater insight, as people list why these balance changes have a positive impact. I really appreciate your second post tu_79 because it's been a nice breakdown. To me it's not enough to say "this mod is more complex" or "this mod has new features" because complexity and additional features do not necessarily make a game better (and again, kind of come off as buzzwords) - the stuff about the balance and the viability of a multitude of strategies rather than having to stick rigidly to pre-existing strategies because they are so much more superior to the alternatives is what sounds most appealing to me.

So from the perspective of someone who has been sold on trying VP from a bit of a scan around the forums, I'd say the elements that appeal most to me are the improved AI and rebalancing that increases the viability of a multitude of strategies rather than having a situation of a handful of clear cut superior strategies. The post by vyyt was particularly helpful with the examples included of how these changes are implemented. I do think the examples that highlight problems with vanilla Civ5 are good selling points, because at the end of the day if you're gonna play VP you already like Civ5, you just want something that improves upon it and helps redress some of the issues that can hinder the enjoyment of it.

That... was one of the best feedbacks i've seen in a while :wow:

.
Welcome to VP and please enjoy your stay! I look forward to reading more of your journey to VP. Feedback on the new player experience is very valuable and something oldies like me cannot have anymore. :beer:

Sierra Wander · May 8, 2018

pza said:
That... was one of the best feedbacks i've seen in a while .
Welcome to VP and please enjoy your stay! I look forward to reading more of your journey to VP. Feedback on the new player experience is very valuable and something oldies like me cannot have anymore.

I'll try to

Is there kind of an official thread for new players asking questions (don't see one among the stickies at least)?

How to 'sell' Vox Populi

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