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How to 'sell' Vox Populi

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by tu_79, Mar 4, 2018.

  1. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Hi, guys,

    I love this mod, but somehow I'm having troubles to convince my friends, even those who are into strategy games, to try it. Part of my problem is that I need to translate most of the features into my language. It sounds silly, but I'm used to think in terms of war weariness, unit supply limit, skirmishers, battlecruisers and such. And while I'm explaining, I have to remember what's the best translation for weariness (¿fatiga? ¿cansancio?), skirmisher (¿hostigador? ¿escaramuzador? both sound weird in spanish), and even those that are easier to translate take a few seconds (battlecruiser = crucero de batalla). Normally this is not a problem, but because I don't really know what may be the best points, trying to figure it out while translating makes me speak very very slowly. This is something I expected to happen when trying to speak in english, not the opposite.
    Anyways.

    I'd like to compile a good set of reasons to play Vox Populi, along with some of the most flashy features. Each one has his own reasons, so maybe you can help me giving a couple of reasons why *you* love playing this mod.

    Also, about the flashiest features, sometimes I'm having troubles to remember which ones were from vanilla, and which ones are from the mod. Specially the latter, since I didn't play with vanilla in a long long time, and some of the earliest features from Community Patch Project sounds like vanilla features to me, now.
     
  2. ryanmusante

    ryanmusante Regular Supporter

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    The VP game concepts are good to begin with. Translation via Bing.

    Spoiler Game Concepts :

    Vox Populi añade algunos conceptos de juego interesantes, y algunos mecánicos muy involucrados para conducirlos, en el juego Civilization V.

    Aquí hay sólo unos pocos.

    Contenido
    Diplomacia ciudad-estado
    La diplomacia de la ciudad-estado se incorpora a Vox Populi que localiza la influencia de los ciudad-Estados que impiden a una civilización comprar hacia fuera ciudad-Estados para una alianza, pero más bien gastar recursos valiosos para una alianza. Además de la influencia de la localización, se añaden nuevas resoluciones que permiten a las civilizaciones establecer una alianza permanente o una esfera de influencia en una ciudad-estado junto con la promulgación de una guerra fría que obligue a las tensiones entre las tres ideologías competidoras.

    Vasallaje
    El vasallo es un concepto reintroducido en Vox Populi. El vasallo consiste en que las civilizaciones están firmando en un acuerdo al cual se vuelven asimétricos el uno al otro. Con este acuerdo, una civilización sirve como el amo en la relación y recoge tributo de las Naciones más débiles, vasallos. Este acuerdo puede ocurrir voluntariamente o por la fuerza a través de capitulación. Después de llegar a la era medieval, el vasallo se encuentra disponible en el menú de diplomacia.

    Eventos E
    ADVERTENCIA: Vox Populi está equilibrado sin los eventos. Pueden deshabilitarse en el panel Configuración avanzada.

    Los eventos son una característica reintroducida y expandida en Vox Populi. Al igual que en el mundo real, los eventos consisten en una serie de opciones, que definen las ideas y objetivos del evento. En el ambiente del juego esto se representa a través de una lista de selecciones, que tienen un conjunto diverso de efectos posibles. Una elección bien hecha puede mejorar considerablemente las habilidades desu civilización, aunque una mala elección también puede hacer lo contrario.

    Monopolios y corporaciones
    Los monopolios y las corporaciones son un nuevo concepto de juego final introducido en Vox Populi. Los monopolios llevan sus excesos de recursos al siguiente nivel de desarrollo económico cuando el comercio y la ventaja de los recursos dejan de mejorar su imperio a través de la felicidad y los rendimientos y en cambio se convierten en una especie de sistema económico que instala imperios con corporaciones que puede expandirse a través de otros imperios. Las corporaciones pueden ser fundadas construyendo un cuartel general. Cada cuartel general requiere un tipo de monopolio específico y las corporaciones pueden expandirse en el imperio de su fundador a través de la construcción de oficinas corporativas. Las corporaciones pueden expandirse a través de otros imperios a través de franquicias corporativas que pueden aparecer después de que una ruta comercial se complete entre una ciudad con una oficina corporativa y una ciudad extranjera.

    Puntuación de la guerra y suministro de unidades
    La puntuación de la guerra y la fuente de la unidad cambia cómo el combate se simula a través de la realidad como la puntuación de la guerra conducirá la voluntad de una nación de continuar una guerra y la fuente de la unidad que determina la fuerza militar de una nación mientras que la fatiga de la guerra es un factor importante para ambos conceptos.

    Nuevas unidades
    Hay nuevas unidades en Vox Populi que cambia el campo de batalla dramáticamente. Los cambios de la clase de reconocimiento y la adición de la nueva clase de unidad a distancia montada cambia el equilibrio del campo de batalla como la clase de reconocimiento ahora está diseñado como un especialista en terreno ganando experiencia a través de descubrir nuevas tierras y recibir promociones únicas que favorece el vasto terreno. La clase a distancia montada combina la movilidad y la fuerza de las unidades montadas con la potencia de fuego a distancia de la clase a distancia, haciendo que sean muy favorables en las tácticas de golpe y ejecución.

    Nuevos edificios y maravillas
    Los nuevos edificios se agregan en Vox Populi tal como nuevos edificios religiosos derivados de las creencias adicionales agregadas por Vox Populi o edificios generales simples en general. El pozo es un edificio de principios generales que proporciona alimentos y bonificaciones de producción, pero sólo se puede construir en las ciudades sin un río. Molinos sin embargo se abre mucho más adelante, pero proporciona mucho más alimento y producciones, mientras que teniendo el mismo requisito. Las maravillas nacionales en Vox Populi ya no requieren que se construya el mismo edificio en todas las ciudades, sino que se basan en un requerimiento Nacional de población que no favorezca ni a estilos ni a altos ni anchos. Las maravillas de la reforma también se agregan para ser construidas en Vox Populi así proporcionando una creencia de la reforma en la ciudad Santa cuando su religión alcanza un cierto umbral del seguidor.

    Nuevas mejoras y cambios
    En Vox Populi, las civilizaciones pueden ser concedidas nuevas mejoras únicas o cambios a sus mejoras que cambian drástico su estilo del juego. Kasbah, una mejora única de la civilización marroquí que utiliza para mejorar los azulejos del desierto, ahora mejora cualquier azulejo que rodean a una ciudad mientras que proporciona bonificaciones defensivas y daño de desgaste cercano. Sin embargo, también se han cambiado las mejoras generales. Las granjas conceden un alimento adicional para cualquier granja adyacente cercana mientras que las mejoras grandes de la gente ahora mejora todos los recursos de lujo y estratégicos.

    Felicidad
    El sistema de la felicidad en el Vox Populi se revisa completamente, favoreciendo ni alto ni ancho estilos. La felicidad se basa ahora en un mecanismo de causa y efecto que hace que su imperio se sienta mucho más vivo y dinámico que nunca.
    Su felicidad se muestra en la línea de estado de la pantalla principal (en la esquinasuperior izquierda del juego). Cuidado. Si llega a cero, su población se está poniendo inquieta. Si empieza a sumergirse en números negativos, estás en problemas. (por cierto, usted puede obtener una excelente instantánea de su felicidad al situar el cursor sobre este número.)
    Una nota importante para recordar-la felicidad generada por los edificios de la ciudad y las políticas basadas en la ciudad nunca puede exceder a su población.
    La felicidad positiva aumenta el valor de sus rendimientos nacionales (es decir, su ciencia total por turno), mientras que la infelicidad los disminuye. Puede ver el modificador actual sobrevolando el icono de 20xHappiness en la barra del panel superior.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
    Owlbebach likes this.
  3. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Thanks. Not asking for a translation really, but I get the point to look at the Wiki.

    So, are those the flashiest features? Recap:
    - New city state diplomacy, with diplomatic units, city state quests and city state coups d'etat.
    - Vassallage, peaceful or forced, where the liege protects and the vassal provides.
    - Monopolies, special bonus for controling a resource market.
    - Corporations, late game powerful trading buildings based on monopolies.
    - New unit lines: scouts reworked, ranged mobile added.
    - New units to fill the gap: a different unit for each era.
    - New buildings and wonders: more options, more replayability.
    - Reworked happiness system: based on city needs and comparative grievance.
    - Reworked war system: supply limits and war weariness affects combat and economy.
    - Optional events, to spice things up.

    I'd also think that these features are worthy:
    - Completely balanced and interesting civ uniques.
    - Reworked techs, social policies, world congress resolutions, religious beliefs, great people actions and unit promotions, so every decision is meaningful and playable.
    - Powerful AI that knows how to play and win. Powerful tactical combat AI that knows how to fight in several fronts and fool the player.
    - Scalable difficulty, making the game more difficult every passing era.
    - Player exploits free. No shortcuts to victory.
    - Almost every start and every map is fully playable.
    - Reworked trade routes: provide more yields and tourism, more tactical set ups.
    - Enhanced tile improvements: adjacency bonus for farms, trade route bonus for villages (former trading posts), and more.


    And also worth mentioning:
    - Development is a compromise between player likings and AI capabilities. Tested thoroughly during more than two years (three?), with a focus on single player. Now in the final bug fixing and balance tweaks phase.
    - Community is friendly and responsive.

    Maybe not worth mentioning until your friend actually tries the game:
    - Siege units no longer have to be deployed, but they are slower on enemy territory.
    - Ranged ships are strong but short ranged. Certainly not OP.
    - Coastal cities are connected with a lighthouse in Classical age.
    - Without an army worth of the name you'll probably die.
    - Focusing on science since the beginning is not a great idea.
    - Even if you don't pursue a diplomatic victory, you should befriend city states and secure some alliances.
    - Melee units can be used against cities. Surrounding them is useful.
    - You have not beaten the game yet, wait until you see the victory screen, late game is very demanding.
    - The civ you are playing is not overpowered. They all seem strong compared to vanilla.
    - You don't need to conquer the whole world for a domination victory, only capitals. You need an ideology for a cultural victory. You need Telecommunications technology for the diplomatic victory poll, and Flight for preventing cultural victory.


    My other question, why we play this mod?
    Personally, I like the immense replayability. Many play styles and strategies are valid and interesting. Sometimes I spend several minutes considering if this time I'll be better with Statecraft or Artistry. Even leveling up ranged units is mentally demanding, do I need more long ranged healers or will I dare to send archers deep into enemy territory. I appreciate how AI fights and collaborates, keeping me busy enough, but for me, the selling point is the extreme and well thought balance in everything, and how often the player faces a meaningful decision.
     
    ryanmusante and LukaSlovenia29 like this.
  4. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    My advice is to maybe "video" yourself or take screenshots of the most interesting stuff to present them with visual evidence. Things like the AI attacking you with a cunning strategy etc.
     
  5. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    You just need to address the problems of Civ 5 and say how Vox Populi literally makes those problems solutions. They're a lot easier to sell like (mountain cities? How is that even possible!) or unlocking a spy immediately at the ancient era or always being able to found a religion.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
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  6. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    I also think once we'll have a finished version (or a golden version), we'll be able to put together, as a community, something great to invite people to play VP. So if not sooner, you'll be able to wow them then.
     
    Asterix Rage likes this.
  7. ryanmusante

    ryanmusante Regular Supporter

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    This is good for anyone to have as an explanation of overall additions to VP, simple terms. A+
     
  8. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Emperor

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    I usually say something like:
    + Take the strongest civs (Poland, Korea, ...)
    + Take the strongest policies (Tradition, Rationnalisme, Freedom,...)
    + etc...
    + Buff them a little because they are still a bit weak.
    + Buff everything else to be at their power, while being balanced an leading to very different playstyles.
    + (Also, explain to the AI how to move and shoot with their ships during the same turn)
    => Vox Populi
     
    tu_79 likes this.
  9. Infixo

    Infixo Deity

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    VP is just as Civ5 should be. Complex, full of features, challenging, with great AI.
    If your friends like easy games, you’ll never convince them, because VP is all but easy. If they like challenge - they should already be playing it...
     
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  10. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    The two most important points.

    1) pure general balance. Policies and units especially.

    2) huge AI improvements. For people that focus on single player games, it makes all the difference in the world.

    Everything else is nice but to me thst is the core of what makes the mod so great
     
  11. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    I gave up on those that like simple games for this reason. Maybe it's worth to emphasize its complexity.
     
  12. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    Most of the actual balance changes are fairly subjective, whether or not Corporations have improved the game any is just a matter of taste / opinion and its not worth selling. anyone who enjoys vanilla BNW and has gotten good at it is probably interested in improved AI though, and you can get that with the base CP. if theyre already BNW fans, start with CP and if they notice / appreciate the changes that were made, theyre already in a position to trust that source to make further changes to their game and try VP. If theyve never played BNW or other civ games already, they probably arent going to start now.
     
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  13. Magean

    Magean Prince

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    I came to VP and sticked with it because it's balanced.

    After some point I got bored with Vanilla BNW... when you know that science is king and there is really only one way to go most of time (tradition, rationalism), and that civs that are good at it are plain better than the rest, you lose interest. Some top-notch deity players are probably good enough to try fancy approaches and make them work, but I'm not part of them. To find challenge, I had to play at Immortal or Deity, in which case I could only compete using the well-known, standard "scientist turtle" approach. To try unusual strategies, I had to play at lower difficulty levels, but then I knew I wouldn't fail and there would be no challenge.

    With VP I found a game in which every civ and every policy combination is viable in multiple ways. Some may be slightly OP or UP (there's no such thing as perfect balance), but not to the extent that there are flat-out dominant strategies that you feel bad not to use. As a consequence, VP has tremendous replayability. That's the main reason why I love VP, there's always something new to try.

    I actually converted a friend of mine to VP, it was quite easy... And he wasn't even a Civ V veteran. We played a LAN game so I could walk him through the mod, with no "discouraging learning curve" effect. Admittedly, English wasn't a barrier so we didn't have your problem. For this educational game I purposely went tall and peaceful, so I could devote more of my attention to coaching my friend on a more "active" playstyle.

    Now he's playing VP quite a lot, more than I do.
     
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  14. vyyt

    vyyt Deity

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    If it is "selling" VP to the people who have some experience with Civ5 or Civ in general, then I think the best way is to pick the worst problems of Civ5 and show how VP solves them - as @Enginseer says above. Plus explaining what is the fun part. And it should be short, nobody should read/hear long lists of features.

    If I had to pick 3, it would be:
    1) The clever AI which does not embark units in front of your battleships, which is able to move and shoot in the same turn with ranged units, attack you at 2 fronts and protect its ranged units properly with melee in the front. AI, which makes its decisions based on the current situation rather than predetermined flavors.
    2) Gradual and granular difficulty system which is nicely scaling: the AI bonuses are evenly spread throughout the game unlike in vanilla where the AI got all the advantages in the begining and you had to catch up. I particularly like the system of AI decision making when it ranks all possible decisions and then randomly chooses from the 2, 3, 4,... best ones based on the difficulty - this is a brilliantly simple way to make AI more or less clever.
    3) Very good balancing of the different approaches in the beginning of the game (= you can be successful with playing wide or tall, peaceful or aggressive, choosing a suitable ancient policy tree.) Unlike in vanilla which was forcing you to a few proven strategies and which was punishing playing (too) wide.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I've long considered doing a 'welcome to VP' video. Maybe I should do a GoFundMe for one. :)

    G
     
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  16. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Usually I'd follow this approach, but nowadays it's more difficult with the baby at home. He changes many things.
     
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  17. andersw

    andersw King

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    I've scratched a bit on the surface and a few things are strikingly better than Civ5.

    Techtree, there is a big variety in where you can go through the techtree (compared to civ 5 where you 99/100 just wanted to beline libraries and then universities.
    AI will not endlessly conga line their units into your missile defences (also less strong archers makes melee units more viable).
    Religious balance.
    Leader balance.
    Beware of AI's that have their UU!
     
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  18. Sierra Wander

    Sierra Wander Chieftain

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    This has actually been an interesting read. I stumbled upon VP through some googling for better AI and it seemed like it was worth a go, particularly as some of the balance changes being discussed appeal to me. However, from the perspective of someone who is completely uninitiated (intending to play my first game with it tomorrow), it seems like a much clearer list of changes and where things diverge would help a lot.

    I came across the wiki which is somewhat helpful but it seems like there's been a massive amount of changes which can be quite intimidating, and statements in the wiki such as "This mod completely overhauls the game by rebalancing or creating new..." and then going onto list things comes off more like advertising buzz than actually explaining why these changes have happened. Stuff being said in this thread has given me a much greater insight, as people list why these balance changes have a positive impact. I really appreciate your second post tu_79 because it's been a nice breakdown. To me it's not enough to say "this mod is more complex" or "this mod has new features" because complexity and additional features do not necessarily make a game better (and again, kind of come off as buzzwords) - the stuff about the balance and the viability of a multitude of strategies rather than having to stick rigidly to pre-existing strategies because they are so much more superior to the alternatives is what sounds most appealing to me.

    So from the perspective of someone who has been sold on trying VP from a bit of a scan around the forums, I'd say the elements that appeal most to me are the improved AI and rebalancing that increases the viability of a multitude of strategies rather than having a situation of a handful of clear cut superior strategies. The post by vyyt was particularly helpful with the examples included of how these changes are implemented. I do think the examples that highlight problems with vanilla Civ5 are good selling points, because at the end of the day if you're gonna play VP you already like Civ5, you just want something that improves upon it and helps redress some of the issues that can hinder the enjoyment of it.
     
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  19. pza

    pza Prince

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    That... was one of the best feedbacks i've seen in a while :wow:.
    Welcome to VP and please enjoy your stay! I look forward to reading more of your journey to VP. Feedback on the new player experience is very valuable and something oldies like me cannot have anymore. :beer:
     
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  20. Sierra Wander

    Sierra Wander Chieftain

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    I'll try to :) Is there kind of an official thread for new players asking questions (don't see one among the stickies at least)?
     

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