How to use artillery effectively...

I am too. It's been that way since 1.00 and received the same amount of debate and controversy as bombers' lethal bombard at the time.

The sad part is that the AI not only doesn't take advantage of the new power of artillery, but it uses artillery even less than in PTW. The AI now never bombards using artillery, even if you park your units adjacent to an AI city full of artillery.
 
Moonsinger

I am experiencing the same thing with arty on C3C 1.15. I am hoping that once the units are redlined you can then hit citizens to reduce population to take away defensive bonus for city size.

I think they are more powerful now and allow you to take over a city intact. Seems like I need more arty than ever. Artillery is :king:
 
Originally posted by Aggie
Bombers do hit other targets AND citiziens as well, but artillery indeed take out defense before everything else. First planes and ships, then land units. That's why I still like artillery more than bombers (despite their lethal bombardment). I'm surprised that both of you noticed this only recently.

I just noticed this...because yesterday was actually the first time I used artillery since C3C was released. Generally, unless I'm playing Deity or Sid or against you, I do not use artillery at all (if I capture them, I would immediately disband them for shield). Since the AIs don't know how to use artillery at all, they won't stand much a chance against us using them. Now come the improve version of artillery in C3C (and no upkeep cost if we capture them), I think it may be a bad idea to make them that deadly.

@zerksees: Good luck with your game!:) Actually, you don't really need any luck once you get a handful of artillery.;)
 
Originally posted by anarres
Not sure how wise this is, it makes all bombard units very powerful, and Arty are now even more devastating than before in even modest numbers...

They probably did it because too many people were complaining that artillery was no good. It may be not wise to make them that powerful, but I'm sure we can limit ourselves from using them excessively.

PS: Since I'm currently playing for the highest possible HOF score on Sid, all artillery usage restriction are off and I'm trying to slaugher the AIs as fast as I can.:D Btw, since the army can also be rushed (as SirPleb just recently discovered) and military leader does seem to show up more often too (I had 5 of them in one turn and I wasn't even trying to farm them), Sid level doesn't seem so tough no more.
 
Moonsinger, where's the post about Army-rushing? I searched around and I couldn't find it.

Greetz Jurimax.
 
Originally posted by Moonsinger
Now come the improve version of artillery in C3C (and no upkeep cost if we capture them), I think it may be a bad idea to make them that deadly.

Really? I noticed that captured Sumerian trenchbutts (spelling?) remained Sumerian when captured, and if I recall they were upgraded to Sumerian cannons, but I had no idea they were upkeep free! That makes zero sense.
 
Originally posted by a4phantom
Really? I noticed that captured Sumerian trenchbutts (spelling?) remained Sumerian when captured, and if I recall they were upgraded to Sumerian cannons, but I had no idea they were upkeep free! That makes zero sense.

Yes, they are totally upkeep free.:) They are like workers now, when you capture them, they reserve their nationality.:)
 
Originally posted by Moonsinger
Actually, you don't really need any luck once you get a handful of artillery.;)

This is a big understatement if I ever heard one

I ran some experiments in C3C 1.15 on AI China cities last night and confirmed that once units are redlined the city will start taking damage – losing improvements and citizens. I was relieved to see this, as I don’t like attacking metropolis cities with cavalry.

I tested on two cities – size 11 and size 9. In both cases once the units were redlined the first 3-4 arty missed, but that was followed by a long string of hits. In the first case, after the string of misses, I think I took out 6 improvements or population with consecutive shots – no misses! :eek: The hit percentage appears significantly higher (Like artillery really needed help!?)

I need more testing to see if these two attacks were isolated incidents. I am a big proponent of artillery and can't recall that kind of success ever in PTW.

I can see switching to a no-war weariness government once I get my first arty, then pillaging anything in reach until my territory is surrounded by cratered wasteland! When I have enough units to take a city, then the artillery can help with that. Any unhappy AI’s will have to pass that crater zone and surely be targeted by arty before they get past it.
 
Originally posted by Moonsinger
Yes, the army can be rushed. He reported here (and I have been rushing it like crazy ever since):

Good to know!
 
Originally posted by Moonsinger
Yes, they are totally upkeep free.:) They are like workers now, when you capture them, they reserve their nationality.:)

Wow. So how does cratering work?
 
Cratering is a new feature of artillery. Craters will form when the last improvement of a tile is pillaged by artillery. I believe a cratered tile will have one food and one shield less than normal. I like the feature but it makes artillery even more powerful.
 
==Cratering is a new feature of artillery. Craters will form when the last improvement of a tile is pillaged by artillery. I believe a cratered tile will have one food and one shield less than normal. I like the feature but it makes artillery even more powerful.==

Salting the fields. Do bombers and naval guns cause craters? Also, I assume you can fire on an unimproved square to create craters?

PS - On rushing armis - I bet that's wierd with slave labor govts. As a warmonger playing Communist for much of the game, I'll now try to use a MGL to build Military Academy on a floodplainy city with huge food production but no shields, instead of an industrial city (which will now be free for building cav to populate those armies). How many citizens die rushing an army?
 
Even leaving aside the settler part to this, its a good strategy.

I like to use huge amounts of arty too. If you don't knock down infantry to 1HP they are very costly to displace. Even with the arty bombardment, I find I'm losing 2 cavalry to remove each infantry. Tanks fare slightly better but don't move quite as fast so it slows the advance. Overall I have to go a lot slower than you are suggesting just to allow my cities to build the units to keep up with the arty, because I still lose so many.
 
Sneakysnaga said:
Even leaving aside the settler part to this, its a good strategy.

I like to use huge amounts of arty too. If you don't knock down infantry to 1HP they are very costly to displace. Even with the arty bombardment, I find I'm losing 2 cavalry to remove each infantry. Tanks fare slightly better but don't move quite as fast so it slows the advance. Overall I have to go a lot slower than you are suggesting just to allow my cities to build the units to keep up with the arty, because I still lose so many.

In the beginning, a lot of cavalry will die, but they are dirt cheap to replace (a lot cheaper than tank). If you have Cleo's, just disconnect some resources and build horseman for mass upgrade. Since there is no mass upgrade for tank, you have to pay a full price for them; exactly why cavalry is much cheaper for the job. Plus cavalry can usually be able to retrieve into a safe zone after the kill. We can't say the same thing for tank; after the kill, tank would usually be sitting duck and very vunerable for enemy retaliation; therefore, we have to protect those tanks too which require additional defensive units and would slow down the entire campaign. Of course, since some people may consider mass upgrade as an exploit, so it's really up to you.;) Anyway, things will get much better as we go; very soon, we would generate enough leaders to make enough cavalry armies and a cavalry army can surely take out any 1HP defender without any problem.:) Of all the year I play Civ, I lost only 1 cavalry army to a 1HP Infantry defender (well, I was over confident and did not take out their radar tower first; so, the error was on my part) .
 
Moonsinger said:
In the beginning, a lot of cavalry will die, but they are dirt cheap to replace (a lot cheaper than tank). If you have Cleo's, just disconnect some resources and build horseman for mass upgrade. Since there is no mass upgrade for tank, you have to pay a full price for them; exactly why cavalry is much cheaper for the job. Plus cavalry can usually be able to retrieve into a safe zone after the kill. We can't say the same thing for tank; after the kill, tank would usually be sitting duck and very vunerable for enemy retaliation; therefore, we have to protect those tanks too which require additional defensive units and would slow down the entire campaign. Of course, since some people may consider mass upgrade as an exploit, so it's really up to you.;) Anyway, things will get much better as we go; very soon, we would generate enough leaders to make enough cavalry armies and a cavalry army can surely take out any 1HP defender without any problem.:) Of all the year I play Civ, I lost only 1 cavalry army to a 1HP Infantry defender (well, I was over confident and did not take out their radar tower first; so, the error was on my part) .

These are all good points, but sometimes tanks are better at producing Leaders because of their blitz ability. Obviously this is limited on the offense by their mere two moves.
 
i apologize for only reading 8 pages of this before writing this up but i do have to comment on the "exploit" label given to this strategy. first up if you have 150 artillery you are almost always destined to win the game anyway. now these war turns late in the game especially at the higher levels where everything is micromanaged can take over an hour per turn easily. now i can use the settler exploit to cut the offensive against say three rivals to "only" 25 turns or do it all in 40 turns without the exploit. either way ive conquered the world, the main difference is that i saved 15-30 hours of my time. so i played dishonorably. honor in a game at deity level is not worth that much time.

honor honor.

conquest.

which one .... :mischief: ... conquest!

you dont even want to know what ive done in civ II to exploit ai weakness. but ill tell you anyway. giving the ai a very large starting advantage i was two turns away from the ai landing his spaceship when i launched my attack of ... :mischief: ... 100 spies escorting a handful of landtroops. the ai had a huge sprawling empire. i nuked the city with the UN and then the capital, captured both, split the empire (civil war) nuked the new capital, another civil war, nuked a few more cities ended with 3 civil wars and the original civ conquered. i nuked one city of each of the other two civs remaining and took one city each. with the UN everyone asked for peace. my official reputation was "spotless" still. the enemy was shattered in one turn. that was with a 200 turn headstart on deity. i only even had espionage because i was allied with this power and he gave it to me - or maybe it was my freight ... something like that. i was an economic weakling when i declared war and the 100 spies were all i could afford.

now THAT is an exploit. but you know what? i dont care. i was very proud of that game.

if you want to talk about "honorable play" then let me suggest these "rules of honor":

1) never use railroads that are not explicitly inside your own culture boundary. its never done in the real world.

2) never use artillery at a range of two EVER. a nine hundred mile throw on an artillery shell is not a real life possibilty.

3) planes shall never run missions at a range greater than two squares. they simply did not have that range.

4) never settle on a continent other than your starting continent in the ancient age. it wasnt done.

5) never declare war on a power with a good reputation. it is "dishonorable".

6) never play a militaristic civilization. its "dishonorable".

7) never raze a city. never abandon a city. both are abominations in the real world.

8) never rush an improvement with population in communism or despotism. it's cruel.

9) do not play civ. war as entertainment is deranged.

10) never allow a city to starve to stave off a pre-build from completion. put yourself in the shoes of your population here and you will see my point. besides its an exploit.

11) do not play on the easy levels. you have an unfair advantage over the ai. this is a huge exploit and your victories are hollow.

12) do not use a communist form of government. its "not nice". do not use a fascist form of government. could you look your mother in the eye after doing this?

in short i dont buy the "the strategy is dishonorable" argument for giving guilt trips to all of us who use it.
 
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