I just lost another space race victory monarch game, standard map. At the start, I (Louis XIV) shared a continent with Mao, so afterward I got iron working, I waged war for 400 years until I wiped out China around 1050. Not soon afterward, caravels from Ghandi and Mansa came around, and I was down a dozen techs. For the rest of the game, I built purely infrastructure and science building, but I was always one age or two behind, i.e. archer vs. longbow, longbow vs. infantry. So my questions are, how far should one pursue early war? and how to catch up in techs?
How to Wage War Without Falling Behind in Techs
- Thread starter mutax2003
- Start date
Mon Mauler
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2005
- Messages
- 274
To catch up in techs, I've found that there are only two decent approaches.
The first is to war more. For example, in your game, this strategy says that you should've warred with Ghandi and Mansa. Going to war with a Civ causes them to stunt their research significantly. You may not have been able to capture any valuable cities, but you could've probably taken a few border towns and wrecked someone's infrastructure through pillaging. In the end, you try to settle for peace and any techs you can get. This means that when it is all said and done, you get techs from them while hindering their ability to research other techs. Personally, I think this is the best way to remedy the aforementioned situation.
The other way is to do what you did, solidify the infrastructure of your own lands and hope to catch up peacefully. To do this, I've found that a couple things are crucial. First and foremost is the forest chop. This helps create some of those important observatories and universities quicker. Also important is slavery. Whipping a few buildings to completion, if you can afford the unhappiness penalty, is definitely the way to go.
No matter what your strategy, though, the one thing to remember is to trade techs. Trade techs early and often. If you have any techs the AI doesn't have, make a trade. This is especially true when you have a tech that no AI has. Then you can trade (usually on the same turn) that one tech for 3-5 techs from your AI opponents. And don't be afraid to trade at a loss.
Finally, if you any other civ is "pleased" or higher with you, you could always ask for a tech, and they may give one to you. I've had this work for me in several games.
Those are my quick tips...
-MM
The first is to war more. For example, in your game, this strategy says that you should've warred with Ghandi and Mansa. Going to war with a Civ causes them to stunt their research significantly. You may not have been able to capture any valuable cities, but you could've probably taken a few border towns and wrecked someone's infrastructure through pillaging. In the end, you try to settle for peace and any techs you can get. This means that when it is all said and done, you get techs from them while hindering their ability to research other techs. Personally, I think this is the best way to remedy the aforementioned situation.
The other way is to do what you did, solidify the infrastructure of your own lands and hope to catch up peacefully. To do this, I've found that a couple things are crucial. First and foremost is the forest chop. This helps create some of those important observatories and universities quicker. Also important is slavery. Whipping a few buildings to completion, if you can afford the unhappiness penalty, is definitely the way to go.
No matter what your strategy, though, the one thing to remember is to trade techs. Trade techs early and often. If you have any techs the AI doesn't have, make a trade. This is especially true when you have a tech that no AI has. Then you can trade (usually on the same turn) that one tech for 3-5 techs from your AI opponents. And don't be afraid to trade at a loss.
Finally, if you any other civ is "pleased" or higher with you, you could always ask for a tech, and they may give one to you. I've had this work for me in several games.
Those are my quick tips...
-MM
dh_epic
Cold War Veteran
First off, I think your war went on too long.
Because maintainance costs kill you, you need to build up your forces very quickly. That means that you start building catapults once you have construction, and continue on to research machinery. Then you build crossbows while you research guilds. And once you build your first knight, you're already at war, and let those fast moving knights arrive as backup. And in all this time, you focus on nothing but building units until you're sure you have enough. Slowly building up the right units while you build other stuff will not work.
Secondly, after a war is over, you need to recognize that the units are doing you more harm than good.
Don't be afraid to disband units. Especially when you're on a two person island. Those maintainance costs are killer.
Third of all, you can't stay on the small island as long as you did.
Recognizing that you're on a two person island, you should have made caravels a top priority, so you could make contact with the other continent. With more people on that continent -- and probably behaving peacefully -- they can surge ahead in techs. You need to get in on these deals, diplomatically speaking.
Fourthly, I hope you weren't keeping every city.
Keeping every city works against you in maintainance costs. Moreover, on a two person island, you really don't need to. You need to figure out which cities are worth keeping. If they have a key wonder, that's cool. If they're a holy city, those cities practically pay for themselves. And I like to keep a capitol city, since they're usually a super city around a lot of great resources. But other than that, it's better to raze the others, and then place a settler later when you can afford to.
If you have to play catchup by the end of the game, you've already lost in a lot of ways. How do you usually do in a monarch game?
Because maintainance costs kill you, you need to build up your forces very quickly. That means that you start building catapults once you have construction, and continue on to research machinery. Then you build crossbows while you research guilds. And once you build your first knight, you're already at war, and let those fast moving knights arrive as backup. And in all this time, you focus on nothing but building units until you're sure you have enough. Slowly building up the right units while you build other stuff will not work.
Secondly, after a war is over, you need to recognize that the units are doing you more harm than good.
Don't be afraid to disband units. Especially when you're on a two person island. Those maintainance costs are killer.
Third of all, you can't stay on the small island as long as you did.
Recognizing that you're on a two person island, you should have made caravels a top priority, so you could make contact with the other continent. With more people on that continent -- and probably behaving peacefully -- they can surge ahead in techs. You need to get in on these deals, diplomatically speaking.
Fourthly, I hope you weren't keeping every city.
Keeping every city works against you in maintainance costs. Moreover, on a two person island, you really don't need to. You need to figure out which cities are worth keeping. If they have a key wonder, that's cool. If they're a holy city, those cities practically pay for themselves. And I like to keep a capitol city, since they're usually a super city around a lot of great resources. But other than that, it's better to raze the others, and then place a settler later when you can afford to.
If you have to play catchup by the end of the game, you've already lost in a lot of ways. How do you usually do in a monarch game?
Silver Marmot
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2005
- Messages
- 239
I've generally tried fighting wars in rounds - that is, I'll capture one or two cities, then declare peace, and then build up my infastructure and attack again, and declare peace after I've captured another couple cities. It seems to work - whenever I fight long cotinuous wars my research goes to like 60%, which might be good enough for noble but not for monarch.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
The only time I fight prolonged wars is when someone everyone likes declares war on me; I'm not going to pass up the opportunity to wipe them out! 
Otherwise you get those stiff diplomatic penalties. If they declare war though, regardless of how many times they sue for peace or how many cities you raze, the other civs won't lift a finger
One thing I do is make sure to get the Pyramids with whatever industrious leader I'm playing as, and use the Oracle to get Civil Service. It's still possible on Monarch, not sure about the higher level handicaps. Bureaucracy + Confucianism + Courthouses + Macemen = you win
I go to war after I've got a solid foundation in my cities with forges and troop production is going strong. If it's a 2-person continent I usually have Cho'Ko'Nu (with Qin) before they get Longbows, and am 5-6 techs ahead with a strong infrastructure. Once they get Longbowmen (or horse archers) I add in Macemen.
Dh_epic's points are excellent for an early continent-takeover! Only keep the best cities (razing all the outposts), disband units when you're done, and make sure to get Optics when you can. It'll allow you to contact the other continent and get that +1 movement bonus, plus it allows you to trade your map and techs for their techs. Always beeline for Paper -> Education, and never trade it away. Universities can give you a huge advantage over the AI, and they give Paper a very, very low priority if someone else has already researched it (and done the initial map trading). Spread your religion and those you capture to all your cities, and build Monestaries for the +10% science research each (they're also dirt cheap).
Unless you're going for a cultural win, skip less useful techs like Music and Drama. Only research Archery or Horseback Riding if you really need it (usually axemen suffice), and skip the Calendar until you want your cities to grow past the happiness limit. If you get the Pyramids that'll practically eliminate unhappiness in your top 5 cities. The Great Library will significantly improve your science output (doubled with Representation), and the Colossus and Great Lighthouse will dramatically counteract your maintenance costs if you have lot of coastal cities.
Otherwise you get those stiff diplomatic penalties. If they declare war though, regardless of how many times they sue for peace or how many cities you raze, the other civs won't lift a finger
One thing I do is make sure to get the Pyramids with whatever industrious leader I'm playing as, and use the Oracle to get Civil Service. It's still possible on Monarch, not sure about the higher level handicaps. Bureaucracy + Confucianism + Courthouses + Macemen = you win
I go to war after I've got a solid foundation in my cities with forges and troop production is going strong. If it's a 2-person continent I usually have Cho'Ko'Nu (with Qin) before they get Longbows, and am 5-6 techs ahead with a strong infrastructure. Once they get Longbowmen (or horse archers) I add in Macemen.
Dh_epic's points are excellent for an early continent-takeover! Only keep the best cities (razing all the outposts), disband units when you're done, and make sure to get Optics when you can. It'll allow you to contact the other continent and get that +1 movement bonus, plus it allows you to trade your map and techs for their techs. Always beeline for Paper -> Education, and never trade it away. Universities can give you a huge advantage over the AI, and they give Paper a very, very low priority if someone else has already researched it (and done the initial map trading). Spread your religion and those you capture to all your cities, and build Monestaries for the +10% science research each (they're also dirt cheap).
Unless you're going for a cultural win, skip less useful techs like Music and Drama. Only research Archery or Horseback Riding if you really need it (usually axemen suffice), and skip the Calendar until you want your cities to grow past the happiness limit. If you get the Pyramids that'll practically eliminate unhappiness in your top 5 cities. The Great Library will significantly improve your science output (doubled with Representation), and the Colossus and Great Lighthouse will dramatically counteract your maintenance costs if you have lot of coastal cities.
Another thing I see when I go in the World Builder is that AI tend to build a lot more farms than cottage (especially after civil service became available), especially the non-financial civs, is this a good strategy? What is your opinion on this?
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Farms and mines allow your city to be a production powerhouse, it is usually best to do this in your military city, and to some extent your wonder-producing city. For all the rest, just build enough farms to mine all the hills in the area, and cover the rest in cottages (unless you're aiming for a GP strategy with a Philosophical leader).mutax2003 said:
In your military city build nothing but mines and farms. Usually you can find a good military city location with 5+ hills in the area, fresh water, and at least one food source, with some grassland in the city radius. You want to make sure you can work all the hills before Biology; extra citizens (if any) can be used as Engineers for a further production bonus. Don't build much commerce or science infrastructure in this city, just enough to ensure a strong cultural value and keep borders back. The important thing is finding a place where you can get as much production as possible, this will allow you to pump out things like 1-per-turn Macemen or Tanks, and obviously the place for the Heroic Epic and West Point.
mutax2003 said:
It depends of your strategy.
With proper civics and tech, full-grown cottages mean a lot of money, about 6-7 or 8 (I don't remember) + 1 hammer over the base ground
. However, farm is only +1 food over the baseline, +2 with biology. Even when converting your food into specialists, farms are less valuable.That's why many people will say that cottage are favored over any other improvements. Essential for your commercial back-bone
.However, other factors need to be considered.
Cities need food. A lot of food. Often, without any farm, many cities won't grow to their full potentiel (i.e. able to work all the city radius), or they'll do it very slowly. Personnaly, I like to see my city grow fast, about 4-5 food/turn. That's why I usually build a few farms to accelerate the growth. Then, I build cottages. Sometimes, I may even change some farms to cottage later, after my city is well established.
Don't forget full-grown cottages are an invitation for a pillage war. I usually build cottages far from my empire limit.
Another strategy is to specialize some cities to harvest GP. There, farms are your friend to harvest good specialist.
I usually tech up to a decent stage before entering any wars (and send gifts occasionally so prolong the peacetime). Either that, or I make my capital a research hub (have gotten 300-400 beakers pre-gunpowder in one city alone before even by only researching military tech) and use my other cities to produce military units.
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