How viable is Progress: either with full investment or part investment?

NoonePerson

Chieftain
Joined
Apr 25, 2018
Messages
36
Just downloaded the mod yesterday and started on Chieftan (heard that the AI was much more challenging)

Impressed so far. I saw the AI prepare three surprise wars from neutral status. Was impressed that the first one was a worker steal surprise War.

I went 1 Honor (authority) tree and am going full Progress, how effective is it compared to the other two overall?
 
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Just downloaded the mod yesterday and started on Chieftan (heard that the AI was much more challenging)

Impressed so far. I saw the AI prepare three surprise wars from neutral status. Was impressed that the first one was a worker steal surprise War.

I went 1 Honor tree and am going full Progress, how effective is it compared to the other two overall?

Use Tradition when you don't have room for expansion and don't want to fight before middle ages.
Use Progress if you have much territory to claim, or want to focus on science.
Use Authority if you don't have room for expansion, but you think advantageous to cripple your neighbours early (you are stronger than them now, but they will be stronger than you later).

In general, it is better to complete trees, for the extra finisher bonus, unless you really have some good other strategy in mind (border expansion, happiness, culture focus).

Don't neglect culture. Don't neglect units. Don't neglect city states. Beware excessive growth and science (unhappiness).
 
Thank you for the replies.

I was very impressed with the mod tweaks. Conditional unhappiness for literacy and corruption. Lump sum yield bonus buildings per population growth. City state revamp and decent random events.

What about the latter civic trees? Are they still similar to vanilla?
 
So in Vanilla its pretty common to switch between the two trees, but for this mod you generally want to start one and finish it before beginning another
This. Look at it this way: The finisher is about as valuable as any other policy, so by not finishing a branch you're falling a policy behind. You're basically losing Poland's UA (Which is top 3 strongest in the game imo.) by not finishing trees.

Thank you for the replies.

I was very impressed with the mod tweaks. Conditional unhappiness for literacy and corruption. Lump sum yield bonus buildings per population growth. City state revamp and decent random events.

What about the latter civic trees? Are they still similar to vanilla?
Later trees are different-ish. The middle trees are all more applicible to more situations. A warmonger might be interested in Statecraft, fealty, or even artistry from time to time. Just look at the policies and see what looks best every time you can choose one.

As for the final branches before ideologies, Rationalism is still a science branch. Industry is very powerful for developing your empire. If you find you're having trouble keeping up with all the buildings, it's a powerful choice. Imperialism is a great branch that gives bonuses to and more benefits from war.

However once again, consider all of them. Warmongers going Rationalism or Industry can make a lot of sense, and sciency Tradition civs that took out a neighbor or two early might find use of Imperialism, especially if they're having a hard time defending coastal cities.
 
What about the latter civic trees? Are they still similar to vanilla?

A very important point is that you don't need the medieval era to unlock medieval era policy trees. Once you have finished an ancient era tree (or take any 6 policies, but that not advised), you can immediatly start a medieval tree. And once the medieval tree is finished, you can immediatly start a Industrial era tree. (and then you unlock ideologies automatically).

Ancient era:
1) Tradition -> if you don't have space (or don't want) to expand. It is probably the most difficult tree to play correctly.
2) Progress -> if you have space to expand peacefully. It is probably the easiest tree to play correctly.
3) Authority -> if you need non peacefull way to expand.

Medieval era:
1) Fealty -> Help your religion. But its not relevant if you found or if you are converted. Also help with big empires. Progress/Authority -> Fealty is the "default choice".
2) Statecraft -> Very good if you have few City-States nearby, even if you don't aim at the Diplo Victory.
3) Artistry -> Good for culture and tourism. Tradition -> Artistry is a quite standard choice for culture victory.

Industrial era:
1) Industry -> Probably the default tree. It gives money, and you always need more money.
2) Imperialism -> For expansionist peoples, or anybody on naval heavy maps.
3) Rationnalism -> Don't take this tree if you have happiness problems. It gives you more growth (so more unhappiness), and some of its bonuses ask for your empire to be happy... But if you have the happiness to sustain it, it is a very good tree.

Note that compared to vanilla, culture is as powerfull as science, except that it is easier to catch up in science than catch up in culture, so culture is better in early game.
 
I would also agree that half trees in ancient era aren’t normally advised. The exception might be the border blob strategy, which uses a little from authority and tradition both to get the most from expanding borders.

Once you get to medieval it’s a bit different. The trees are more front loaded, and the finishers are weaker (not weak by any stretch, but not quite the impact of the ancient trees).

So cherry picking from a few of those trees is more viable.
 
What path do people doing the "border blob" strategy take?
Authority 2 to get the expansion bonus as early as possible, then Tradition 2, then...? Finish the left side of Authority, I'd imagine? But I wouldn't be sure about the last policy.

I'm thinking of trying it at some point, probably with Russia. It sounds a bit fiddly, but fun.
 
I go tradition 2 first myself. The culture jump for me is faster than authority, unless there are a lot of barbs.

Case in point...you have to kill a barb camp with a warrior in it every 6 turns to keep up with traditions culture.

Then authority 2.

From there you go full tradition. The culture bonus you get at the end of the tree will continue to push your borders even faster
 
I go tradition 2 first myself. The culture jump for me is faster than authority, unless there are a lot of barbs.

Case in point...you have to kill a barb camp with a warrior in it every 6 turns to keep up with traditions culture.

Then authority 2.

From there you go full tradition. The culture bonus you get at the end of the tree will continue to push your borders even faster

but you only count barbarians
you don't count that you can get 25 culture from cleaning a camp ( which is worth 3 warriors) and you don't count that you can get extra culture from any kills.
My last game with greece :

Rush bronze working. rush buy one hoplite and produce another.
I cleaned barbarian camps : boom I've got tribute -> I rushed the nearest city-state : asked tribute ( extra culture ) and declared war on him to kill two warriors.
now I've got 2 hoplite lvl 3 and I rush buy another time to bully my neighbor. I declared war on spain. killed some warriors and one archer.
I was first in culture at this point.

You can't expect to make it work if you don't use it to its full potential.
 
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but you only count barbarians
you don't count that you can get 25 culture from cleaning a camp ( which is worth 3 warriors) and you don't count that you can get extra culture from any kills.
My last game with greece :

Rush bronze working. rush buy one hoplite and produce another.
I cleaned barbarian camps : boom I've got tribute -> I rushed the nearest city-state : asked tribute ( extra culture ) and declared war on him to kill two warriors.
now I've got 2 hoplite lvl 3 and I rush buy another time to bully my neighbor. I declared war on spain. killed some warriors and one archer.
I was first in culture at this point.

You can't expect to make it work if you don't use it to its full potential.

Actually I did factor that in. Clearing a Barb camp with a warrior gives you 31 culture. Tradition with the artist specialist grants five culture a turn. Hence you must clear a bar camp with a warrior every six turns in order to keep up
 
Actually I did factor that in. Clearing a Barb camp with a warrior gives you 31 culture. Tradition with the artist specialist grants five culture a turn. Hence you must clear a bar camp with a warrior every six turns in order to keep up
Yes but working that artist uses up a citizen and negates all the bonus food you have so far. If you compare tradition with two policies to authority with just one, yea tradition looks great. Authority is also pulling lots of hammers and bonus yields, including culture if you tribute CS (which you should try to)
 
So I think we we are all trying to say is...you can go two ways with Border Blobs.

You can go Authority 2 first. You will start getting the tribute bonus earlier, and can push culture with tribute and barbs.

You can go Tradition 2 first. You will get the Goddess of the Expanse Pantheon quicker, and then you can get steady culture from your policies.

I like Tradition earlier as I said, as it doesn't force you into a bigger military if you don't want to. But as others have said, it is very viable.


In terms of which tree to finish out, there is likely debate their too. Tradition gives you faster borders, as it gives you a lot of culture that is pumped into your borders. With Authority, you get more bonuses from tribute in general.
 
The only way this border blob strat can make sense to me is with Russia, going trad 2 then authority 2, then complete either tree first and the other second. Take the Expanse pantheon and found with it. Go warmonger expansionist. Most likely skipping medieval policies then, which is a tough one to swallow but arguably better than not completing a half-open tree.
 
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