How would you design China?

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Speaking of Mao he was last seen as a leader in the console game Civ Revolution, not including the 2010 board game. For Civ Rev 2 he was replaced with Emperor Taizong of the Tang Dynasty. He would be an interesting leader choice that Firaxis hasn't used yet in a main series game.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

1. The Great Wall still remains their Unique Infrastructure and can also 'connected' to 'regular fort'
2. UU (There were many choices to make)
- Historical wise as the 'first' to use crossbows: Gong Nu Levy (Early crossbowman, actually a 'crossbowman' / 'marksman' but availables much earlier. Cheaper than a respective unit it replaces
- Hu Dunpao (AKA Crouching Tiger): Two in one 'ranged unit capable of siege' (by Eastern doctrines--neutralize enemy defenders atop of their ramparts rather than breaking the wall open).. But remember that this term was used to call the two different 'siege capable' weapons--a type of traction trebuchet (Stands in for catapult actulally), OR portable light cannon as seen in Civ6 (but in game civilopedia entry suggested that it 'outranges anything else in Imjin War. which contradicts to actual in game profile that it has a range of ONE hex)
3. Leader (Hard to choose, five thousand years of Chinese History means many good leaders to choose)
3.1 Liu Bang (His coronation name is Han Gaozong)
3.2 Tang Taizong (Agenda 'Journey to the West', religious)
3.3 Ming Yong Le (Associated with Zheng He's Grand Fleet, has his own UU--Baochuan (A giant Manowar availables earlier) )
3.4 Kang Xi (Shared with Manchu)
3.5 Deng Xiaoping ('All cats, regardless of coats, can catch mouse')... Founder of Shenzhen Industrial City. where new Chinese Golden Age begins.

EDIT: I've just spotted that Tang Taizong did appaer in Civ Rev2. but that's not a PC Civ 'Grand game', I like him to be here as well.

 

[Phrozen]

Taizong of Tang being religious is a bit weird as he was known as being a scholar of science and logic and openly and publicly scoffed at signs from the heavens and other things he considered illogical superstitions. You can give him loyalty bonuses, military bonuses, or general government bonuses though.

 

[TheSpaceCowboy]

I would like the Chinese civilization to be designed in a way that deliberately offends the Chinese Communist Party and the "People's Liberation Army." The mere fact that they're censorious is reason enough for Firaxis to exercise their Freedom of Speech in the face of government censorship.

I'd make Chiang Chung-cheng the leader of the main Chinese civ. I'd consider making Taipei the capital.

In a religious themed expansion pack, I'd make Tibet a civ as well.

If my idea for Cultures were implemented, China would be one of the Oriental cultures in the base game and have a more isolationist gameplay as a result.

The main mechanic that would give the greatest asymmetry to China as a civilization would be an entirely unique Great Generals list, pulling heavily from the Romance of the Three Kingdoms (after which its Unique Ability would be named). Every combat victory within Chinese territory would grant a generous amount of Great General points. These Great Generals' abilities would only work within Chinese territory.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ And use GR romanizations instead of Hanyu Pinyin ???

 

[Zaarin]

I'd make Chiang Chung-cheng the leader of the main Chinese civ. I'd consider making Taipei the capital.

...You realize that Chiang Kai-shek was as much a butcher and a tyrant as Mao, right? And I say that as someone who thinks that Mao Zedong definitely deserves to sit atop the short list of most loathsome human beings of the 20th century. The Chinese Nationalists are a prime example of the unfortunate reality that fighting bad guys does not make you a good guy. I'd boycott Civ7 if it included Mao Zedong or Chiang Kai-shek. Choose Empress Wu if you want to make China the villain; at least she's interesting and wasn't a psychopath (reports of her murdering her way to power were exaggerated...probably).

More broadly, portraying China as a military superpower makes no sense. Every time China tried to become an expansionist power, it almost always backfired and led to decline. Romance of the Three Kingdoms is a work of literature and should no more be the foundation of a civilization than the Iliad and Odyssey or the Epic of Gilgamesh (*glares at Gilgamesh*). Further, portraying China as isolationist is really only appropriate for the Qing period...when China was once again ruled by a foreign dynasty, the foreign dynasty generally regarded as the most distasteful by the Chinese as the Manchus forced discriminatory customs like footbinding and the queue on the Han.

I have no love lost for the PRC, but choosing a monster to lead China and portraying China in a manner that doesn't represent its history just to tick off the PRC is incredibly petty. In fact, it's paying the PRC a compliment it doesn't deserve. China existed long before the PRC; remember it for what it was.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

I have no love lost for the PRC, but choosing a monster to lead China and portraying China in a manner that doesn't represent its history just to tick off the PRC is incredibly petty. In fact, it's paying the PRC a compliment it doesn't deserve. China existed long before the PRC; remember it for what it was.

If Mao Zedong shouldn't be a candidate Chinese leader. then do you think Deng Xiaoping a better choice?
What he did is the creation of Shenzhen industrial complex (where it located just on the opposite side of Hongkong, by then Deng's strategy is to use British controlled Hongkong as a 'gate'. ) well actually should Shenzhen be World Wonder?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

If Mao Zedong shouldn't be a candidate Chinese leader. then do you think Deng Xiaoping a better choice?

Politics aside, both to me are too recent to be considered.

We also have a multitude of leaders throughout the history of China that have never been in civ yet that I would rather have before them. I'd definitely rather have Empress Wu, Qin or Kublai Khan, as a dual leader for both China and Mongolia, again before them.

 

[Lord of War N02]

This is what I would design for China in CIV 7

Leader: Yongle
Unique unit 1: Fire lancer
Unique unit 2: Baochuan ship
Unique Building: Chengqiang (city wall)

Politics aside, both to me are too recent to be considered.

We also have a multitude of leaders throughout the history of China that have never been in civ yet that I would rather have before them. I'd definitely rather have Empress Wu, Qin or Kublai Khan, as a dual leader for both China and Mongolia, again before them.

I agree, there are many choices for Chinese leader starting from pre imperial era to Qing era like Tang Taizong, Yongle, Song Taizu, Han Wudi and more. I would like to see newcomers rather than old leaders returning in CIV 7.

 

[Zaarin]

Unique Building: Chengqiang (city wall)

Ah, so this time it will be China that has the Georgian spirit. As long as it's not Russia having the Georgian spirit.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Ah, so this time it will be China that has the Georgian spirit. As long as it's not Russia having the Georgian spirit.

To be fair I wouldn't be surprised at Russia getting unique walls either, and wouldn't mind it. Surprised it' hasn't happened sooner as in letting Russia build their "kremlins"? Or maybe that's on purpose considering the word "Kremlin" is often associated with other things?

Honestly it would have kind of made more sense to give unique Renaissance Walls (Kremlin) to Russia while Georgia could have gotten the unique Holy Site (not sure what to call it, maybe whatever a monastery is in the Georgian language?).

As for China I'd rather them have the Great Wall again then city walls, though I wouldn't mind something else new altogether.

Actually here's my plea for an "Imperial Garden" unique infrastructure.

Historically certain emperors at various times housed Giant Pandas in their gardens. I'd love to see Giant Pandas represented in a game.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

This is what I would design for China in CIV 7

Leader: Yongle
Unique unit 1: Fire lancer
Unique unit 2: Baochuan ship
Unique Building: Chengqiang (city wall)

Both UU Requires Gunpowder tech to unlock bombard unit with musketeers/pike&shot unlocked with follow-up techs (firearms). This one is more historically accurate

I agree, there are many choices for Chinese leader starting from pre imperial era to Qing era like Tang Taizong, Yongle, Song Taizu, Han Wudi and more. I would like to see newcomers rather than old leaders returning in CIV 7.

Do you think Liu Bang (Han Gaozu) a proper candidate?

 

[Lord of War N02]

Do you think Liu Bang (Han Gaozu) a proper candidate?

I do not think Liu Bang is proper candidate because Liu Bang's reign as a first Han Emperor is not well remembered compared to his time as Chu-Han contention which is more popular description of Liu Bang.

However, although Liu Bang reign has few achievements as an emperor despite its significant like reducing taxes and reuniting China but his legacy has long term impact which Han dynasty is considered as one of golden age in Chinese history. In overall, Liu Bang is considered as a good leader for China.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ And he is the first Emperor who reigned LONG. outlasted Qin Shihuang.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I do not think Liu Bang is proper candidate because Liu Bang's reign as a first Han Emperor is not well remembered compared to his time as Chu-Han contention which is more popular description of Liu Bang.

However, although Liu Bang reign has few achievements as an emperor despite its significant like reducing taxes and reuniting China but his legacy has long term impact which Han dynasty is considered as one of golden age in Chinese history. In overall, Liu Bang is considered as a good leader for China.

I'd personally pick Emperor Wudi, if we were to get a leader from the Han Dynasty. The longest ruling ethnic Chinese emperor who centralized the government, promoted Confucianism and culture, and expanded the territory to it's greatest height spreading China's influence. .

 

[Zaarin]

To be fair I wouldn't be surprised at Russia getting unique walls either, and wouldn't mind it. Surprised it' hasn't happened sooner as in letting Russia build their "kremlins"? Or maybe that's on purpose considering the word "Kremlin" is often associated with other things?

I was more referring to a certain Georgian who once ruled Russia. That being said, I hope Firaxis has gotten the message that no one wants unique walls.

Honestly it would have kind of made more sense to give unique Renaissance Walls (Kremlin) to Russia while Georgia could have gotten the unique Holy Site (not sure what to call it, maybe whatever a monastery is in the Georgian language?).

Or give us Armenia instead with a unique monastery or church.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Or give us Armenia instead with a unique monastery or church.

Yeah I was talking about what I would have done for Civ 6, but I agree with this for Civ 7.

 

[notNamed]

More broadly, portraying China as a military superpower makes no sense. Every time China tried to become an expansionist power, it almost always backfired and led to decline. Romance of the Three Kingdoms is a work of literature and should no more be the foundation of a civilization than the Iliad and Odyssey or the Epic of Gilgamesh (*glares at Gilgamesh*). Further, portraying China as isolationist is really only appropriate for the Qing period...when China was once again ruled by a foreign dynasty, the foreign dynasty generally regarded as the most distasteful by the Chinese as the Manchus forced discriminatory customs like footbinding and the queue on the Han.

You could certainly make a case for army-focused China with Wudi (literally just "Emperor The Conqueror", and he certainly deserved the name) and basically anything up to Song. When Song hits, the Chinese after centuries of trying, finally find a way to reign the military in. A strong military is a staple of early Imperial China. Keeping a strong military loyal proved essentially impossible. It was warlords tearing apart their domains and trying to conquer everyone else, not emperor's nephews. That or Qing's own expansionist forays that ballooned them up into (mostly) modern proportions.
As far as Qing is concerned, I wouldn't suck up to chauvinist nationalists. There's lots of potential there as well. Manchus were the ones trying to ban footbinding, not enforcing it. Queues were also not some sort of Star of David mark. Manchu wore queues themselves and so did all of their "civilised" subjects. Be they Vietnamese, Chinese, Japanese,... it's not like they checked ID cards and did DNA tests. Ban on trade and interaction with the outside world outside dedicated ports and missions was a Ming policy that simply stayed in effect during Qing.

Though I mostly agree that making the Chinese civ into a military powerhouse is on the lower end of options. They didn't create an entity spanning the size of Europe by shaking hands and sharing rice wine with strangers. But the Civ focus and designation is (for now, anyway) completely fixed. And if people wanted to play a Prussian-style warrior state, that's what Germany is there for.

If Mao Zedong shouldn't be a candidate Chinese leader. then do you think Deng Xiaoping a better choice?
What he did is the creation of Shenzhen industrial complex (where it located just on the opposite side of Hongkong, by then Deng's strategy is to use British controlled Hongkong as a 'gate'. ) well actually should Shenzhen be World Wonder?

Deng "What are they, protesters?" Xiaoping.
If you want a modern leader, Sun Yat-Sen is about as far as it goes, imo. I'd even say he would be a decent persona for it if you ignore his more Gandhi-ish disposition.

 

[Zaarin]

You could certainly make a case for army-focused China with Wudi (literally just "Emperor The Conqueror", and he certainly deserved the name) and basically anything up to Song. When Song hits, the Chinese after centuries of trying, finally find a way to reign the military in. A strong military is a staple of early Imperial China. Keeping a strong military loyal proved essentially impossible. It was warlords tearing apart their domains and trying to conquer everyone else, not emperor's nephews. That or Qing's own expansionist forays that ballooned them up into (mostly) modern proportions.

I mean, I feel like you just made my case for me: when the military got too strong, warlords divided up the kingdom. It happened repeatedly. Sure, you can make a case for a militarist China, but I don't think it's the best way to represent China.

As far as Qing is concerned, I wouldn't suck up to chauvinist nationalists. There's lots of potential there as well. Manchus were the ones trying to ban footbinding, not enforcing it. Queues were also not some sort of Star of David mark. Manchu wore queues themselves and so did all of their "civilised" subjects. Be they Vietnamese, Chinese, Japanese,... it's not like they checked ID cards and did DNA tests. Ban on trade and interaction with the outside world outside dedicated ports and missions was a Ming policy that simply stayed in effect during Qing.

I don't go out of my way to put forward my personal political views, but I think I have made it abundantly clear throughout my posting history here that I'm anti-nationalist.

Daoists have a prohibition against cutting hair so the queue was extremely offensive to them; that the Buddhist Manchus wore it themselves isn't really relevant. As a comparison, imagine if Muslims or Jews were forced by a conquering dynasty to eat a diet of pork; that might be fine for their conquerors but would be an egregious violation of the Jews' or Muslims' religious beliefs. The Yuan and the Great Jin essentially assimilated to Chinese culture; the Qing did not (or did so only partially). Also the Qing did not practice footbinding themselves, only imposed it on the Han. NB I didn't mean to suggest that I had a problem with a Qing leader of China; I was simply pointing out that isolationism has not been characteristic of the bulk of Chinese history and that the Qing period wasn't exactly the high-water mark of Chinese history.