How would you design Egypt in Civ7?

[Saint Leibowitz]

The Medjay is Egypt's unique unit, which unlocks at Bronze Working. This unit can be built as either a Melee (30 Strength, 2 Speed, 90 Production) unit or a Heavy Cavalry unit (mounted on a Chariot, 35 STR, 3 Speed, 130 Production), and gains a combat boost when fighting inside or adjacent to Egypt's borders (+4 Strength). Unmounted Medjay can also inflict a bleeding wound on enemies they strike, preventing them from healing for two turns.

I like the Medjay being a unique unit with a homeland bonus; but what is the specific historic basis for the bleeding wound ability? I like it mechanically; I'm just wondering why it'd be a bonus for the Medjay -- did they stab particularly hard, or something...?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I like the Medjay being a unique unit with a homeland bonus; but what is the specific historic basis for the bleeding wound ability? I like it mechanically; I'm just wondering why it'd be a bonus for the Medjay -- did they stab particularly hard, or something...?

Probably more to do with the weapon they would be holding, a khopesh sword, at least like they do in the Gift of the Nile Scenario. Sickle shaped swords were used to reach around shields and stab vital areas.

I'd love a similar unit instead for Ethiopia.

 

[Aiken_Drumn]

I'd like an early builder ability for Egypt similar to Qin Shi Huang's: builders can spend charges to build ancient and classical wonders. Bonus for building districts adjacent to rivers may remain.
For unique improvement, I'd like to see Mastaba. It would be built on flat terrain (except tundra and snow) and would give culture, faith and loyalty/stability/or anything equivalent.
I wouldn't want to miss the sphinxes, so would be nice if this to come back as a wonder of the world: Great Sphinx of Giza.

I have to say, I think this is a solid idea.

 

[Zaarin]

Probably more to do with the weapon they would be holding, a khopesh sword, at least like they do in the Gift of the Nile Scenario. Sickle shaped swords were used to reach around shields and stab vital areas.

Also for eviscerating.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Probably more to do with the weapon they would be holding, a khopesh sword, at least like they do in the Gift of the Nile Scenario. Sickle shaped swords were used to reach around shields and stab vital areas.

I'd love a similar unit instead for Ethiopia.

The Khopesh or 'sickle-sword' is first shown about 2600 BCE made of copper, and earlier a similar weapon was made of wood with flint 'blades' attached. It shows up all over the Middle East from southern Anatolia to Egypt, and later in bronze as well as copper. The Aksumite Shotel, which shows up in Humankind, is an iron age - Classical version of the same.

But, compared to javelin or spear points, any edged sword makes really ugly wounds. When Macedonian troops first saw men killed by Roman gladius shortswords they were horrified - their pike points made neat holes in people, but the swords left their innards scattered all over in bloody heaps, and the sight was not morale-building before they went into battle against these same swords.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The Aksumite Shotel, which shows up in Humankind, is an iron age - Classical version of the same.

Yeah that's precisely what UU I would give Ethiopia.

 

[Kimiimaro]

Just for fun, I have a non-Pharaonic leader for Egypt:

Leader: Muhammad Ali Pasha
Leader ability: Modernisation of the Nile - Plantations provide Egypt +2 gold. Farms that touch a luxury resource with a plantation and at the same time border a river tile provide Egypt +1 gold. Industrial and economic districts and their buildings built on river borders get constructed 20% faster. If allied to a technologically more developed empire, so long as Egypt doesn't catch up in technology, campuses and their buildings are 20% faster to construct and Egypt's armies are 10% cheaper to upgrade.
Note: Muhammad Ali Pasha oversaw a rather significant set of changes in Egypt under his governance - be it political, military, educational or economic. Realising how bountiful the Nile river was, he decided to use the fertile river and Egypt's warm climate to significantly raise Egypt's income by expanding irrigation systems to reach deeper inland from the river, subsequently using newly workable lands to plant vast quantities of cash crops that were to be sold to Europe - but not before significantly reforming trade by involving the state in commercial activities. As such, the Egyptian treasury flourished. This was not the end of it though, and so, as the next step, Alexandria saw a major shipyard built and Egyptian cities saw manufactures and factories rise, some financed by the state, some built by European investors. European help he also used in building of a new system of governance, in spreading of education in Egypt, and in the matter of modernisation of his army that would later best the Ottoman troops twice - only failing to achieve independence due to European Empires' intervention in the second war that ended up pushing Egypt back. Though not gaining formal independence, by the end of his reign, Muhammad Ali transformed Egypt into a much richer, de facto independent state with a modernised army and navy.
I've simply decided to build his ability on the economic transformation of Egypt, as well as his attempt to modernise Egyptian military (which was the big drive behind his industrialisation atempt) and on the spread of education that happened under him in Egypt.

Yes, I am aware that an achievement referencing a certain famous boxer would be inevitable .

 

[Zaarin]

Just for fun, I have a non-Pharaonic leader for Egypt:

Not only is it the wrong civilization entirely, being strictly speaking part of Arabia, not Egypt per se, but Egypt itself was under the rule of the Ottomans at the time. To top it all off, Muhammad Ali Pasha was Albanian.

 

[Kimiimaro]

Not only is it the wrong civilization entirely, being strictly speaking part of Arabia, not Egypt per se, but Egypt itself was under the rule of the Ottomans at the time. To top it all off, Muhammad Ali Pasha was Albanian.

It's just that this Albanian kinda fascinated me, and I have a thing for the industrial era and 19th century politics

Of course, I expect no less than ancient Egyptian civilisation with a Pharaoh being a staple. Depiction of Misr can and should definitely wait till we have that .

 

[Zaarin]

It's just that this Albanian kinda fascinated me, and I have a thing for the industrial era and 19th century politics

Oh, yes, he's an interesting guy. He just kind of lacks a civ to lead--a couple millennia too late for Egypt, about a century too early for the Arab Republic of Egypt, and in the wrong place for the Ottomans.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Not only is it the wrong civilization entirely, being strictly speaking part of Arabia, not Egypt per se, but Egypt itself was under the rule of the Ottomans at the time. To top it all off, Muhammad Ali Pasha was Albanian.

Makes Cleopatra not that bad.

 

[Zaarin]

Makes Cleopatra not that bad.

Well, to play devil's advocate, at least Muhammad Ali Pasha didn't lose his empire. But yes, Cleopatra VII Philopator is the absolute latest ruler who can really be said to be the leader of Egypt, and even she is rather dubious, not simply because she's a foreigner and certainly not for being the last ruler of independent Egypt (she did her best), but because post-New Kingdom Egypt was a period of decline and foreign rule (first Achaemenids then Macedonians). IMO Egypt should always be represented at the height of its power in the New Kingdom, which gives us most of Egypt's best candidates anyway like Hatshepsut, Ramesses II, Thutmose III, and Akhenaten. (Amusingly, all but Ramesses II are from the Eighteenth Dynasty--a rather eventful period of Egyptian history.) Not to say I'd be upset to see an Old Kingdom or Middle Kingdom Pharaoh--but the New Kingdom was certainly the pinnacle of Egyptian power, culture, and influence.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Well, to play devil's advocate, at least Muhammad Ali Pasha didn't lose his empire. But yes, Cleopatra VII Philopator is the absolute latest ruler who can really be said to be the leader of Egypt, and even she is rather dubious, not simply because she's a foreigner and certainly not for being the last ruler of independent Egypt (she did her best), but because post-New Kingdom Egypt was a period of decline and foreign rule (first Achaemenids then Macedonians). IMO Egypt should always be represented at the height of its power in the New Kingdom, which gives us most of Egypt's best candidates anyway like Hatshepsut, Ramesses II, Thutmose III, and Akhenaten. (Amusingly, all but Ramesses II are from the Eighteenth Dynasty--a rather eventful period of Egyptian history.) Not to say I'd be upset to see an Old Kingdom or Middle Kingdom Pharaoh--but the New Kingdom was certainly the pinnacle of Egyptian power, culture, and influence.

I mean I don't hate Cleopatra as much as everyone else. That being said I'm all for something new and Akhenaten being a religious/wonder builder is the kind of thing I think Egypt needs. I'd also be fine with Hatshepsut being the leader focusing on trade that Cleopatra was in Civ 6.

 

[Zaarin]

I mean I don't hate Cleopatra as much as everyone else.

As a historical figure, I like her a lot. She led a fascinating life, and she made the best of an awful situation that had no happy ending. As a leader of Egypt, I think she's much, much too late.

That being said I'm all for something new and Akhenaten being a religious/wonder builder is the kind of thing I think Egypt needs. I'd also be fine with Hatshepsut being the leader focusing on trade that Cleopatra was in Civ 6.

Hatshepsut should always be the go-to for a female leader of Egypt. She was one of Egypt's best pharaohs, irrespective of gender.

 

[Krajzen]

What about agressive as hell ancient Egypt under like Thotmes the Great, which loves to conquer stuff and establish tributary states, while building enormous architecture on the side from resources it gained due to conquest, tribute and trade?

Also, I'd really love to see Islamic Egypt as a separate civilization - no, not part of "Arabia", and surely as hell not combined with ancient one (oh god the horror) just a separate civ devoted in its entirety to Islamic Egypt. Naming would be a great problem for modern Egypt, but it's not a problem for medieval one, where we just name it after Fatimids, Ayyubids or Mamluks. I'd kill for a Mamluk Egypt civilization, capital in Cairo, led by Baybars who crushed both Crusades and Mongols and is very popular in the Islamic world.

In fact, it also would be great if we could somehow shoehorn Ptolemaic Hellenist Egypt as a civ separate from Greece and Egypt. You make Ptolemy I or II the leader, Alexandria the capital, a lot of possibilities with military, economic and science bonuses. But this vision is unlikely to materialize.

But still much more likely than stunts that would be necessary to somehow bring Greek - Roman - Christian - Alexandria Egypt to life, as it was never an independent entity in any way, but God if it wasn't an enormously important, separate culture.

 

[Zaarin]

What about agressive as hell ancient Egypt under like Thotmes the Great, which loves to conquer stuff and establish tributary states, while building enormous architecture on the side from resources it gained due to conquest, tribute and trade?

I'm very against an expansionist or militarist Egypt simply because 99% of Egyptian history was isolationism or defensive wars; for most of its history Egyptians kept to themselves and questioned whether non-Egyptians were even people. This makes sense when you consider how geographically isolated Egypt is, with ocean to the north, desert to the east and west, and the cataracts of the Nile to the south.

But still much more likely than stunts that would be necessary to somehow bring Greek - Roman - Christian - Alexandria Egypt to life, as it was never an independent entity in any way, but God if it wasn't an enormously important, separate culture.

Hmm. Even though it was technically never independent, I think Alexandria would make a great city-state. NFP set the precedent with several city-states that are technically part of civs already in the game. Bonus points because Alexandria could go on the city lists of Egypt, Greece/Macedon, Rome, Byzantium, Persia, Arabia, or Ottomans; making it a city-state settles that dispute...

 

[BuchiTaton]

Hmm. Even though it was technically never independent, I think Alexandria would make a great city-state. NFP set the precedent with several city-states that are technically part of civs already in the game. Bonus points because Alexandria could go on the city lists of Egypt, Greece/Macedon, Rome, Byzantium, Persia, Arabia, or Ottomans; making it a city-state settles that dispute...

I think Alexandria have the problem that we clearly know who founded it, and would fit better that civ. Other cities that changed a lot between different empires like most of Mesopotamia, the Levant and Anatolia are usually so ancient that we can say "well this X city was from Amorites, Elamites, Urrian, Hattians, etc." so they could get a pass.

 

[Zaarin]

I think Alexandria have the problem that we clearly know who founded it, and would fit better that civ. Other cities that changed a lot between different empires like most of Mesopotamia, the Levant and Anatolia are usually so ancient that we can say "well this X city was from Amorites, Elamites, Urrian, Hattians, etc." so they could get a pass.

Well, yes, but I meant it was a major city for Ptolemaic Egypt, Rome, Byzantium, Arabia, and the Ottomans as well as a minor city (Rakoti) for the Ancient Egyptians and the Persians. So in that sense making it a city-state would settle the dispute--and if Alex and the Macedonians return, it can be Alexandreia Rhakotis on his city list.

 

[BuchiTaton]

Well, yes, but I meant it was a major city for Ptolemaic Egypt, Rome, Byzantium, Arabia, and the Ottomans as well as a minor city (Rakoti) for the Ancient Egyptians and the Persians. So in that sense making it a city-state would settle the dispute--and if Alex and the Macedonians return, it can be Alexandreia Rhakotis on his city list.

Easier, give the Great Lighthouse wonder the effect of change the name of the city to Alexandria, so the first to build it win the name each game.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Easier, give the Great Lighthouse wonder the effect of change the name of the city to Alexandria, so the first to build it win the name each game.

Alexandria became one of the largest cities in the Mediterranean world largely because of trade - it was the entrepot for Egypt, Nubia, and the Indian trade coming across the ocean by Monsoon wind and up the Red Sea, so it would almost make sense to have the Pharos be a Wonder peculiar to Alexandria - making it a Commercial/Trade powerhouse in every game.

This would, of course, be an entirely new way of treating World Wonders, but I think worth considering. By contrast, the Mouseion, or Great Library, could be built anywhere and attract 'natural philosophers'/scientific thinkers for a Scientific Bonus. We could possibly categorize most of the World Wonders in the game as either General/Build Anywhere or Specific/Bonus only in very specific locations - another possible barrier to the infamous Wonder Races that spawn so many complaints . . .