Huge New CIV Update, Largest to Date

[player1 fanatic]

Fruit gathering...

 

[JG99_Korab]

dh_epic: The scriptures say IN the beginning there was God. For them there was no government. It was a heirarchy. God was the government and thats all they needed. When they disobeyed God They went into exile or something. When they obeyed him they were prosperious. Polytheism doesn't lead to judaism or christinaty. according to the scriptures In the beggining was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.

 

[Dynamic]

something I don't get: you have to discover agriculture, hunting and fishing...what do your people eat up until that point???

May be we can't use some resource like fish before fishing, game before hunting and wheat before agriculture? Or may be agriculture is needed for irrigation?

 

[Commander Bello]

[...] Personally, I wouldn't see anything wrong in adapting the system from CtP I and II, where happiness was % based, and where you assigned your specialists at the empire level (with an option to adjust at the city to city level!)
[..]

I completely agree upon the fact that CtP/CtP2 gave many good inputs which shouldn't be put aside.
Unfortunately, it seems to be a matter of pride not to adopt those ideas for the original Civ series.

 

[CurtSibling]

Oh and, something else that I found disturbing, in the 'Tech Discovered' screenshot, is that Polytheism LEADS to Monotheism! Why should it? I fear that this again represents the VERY Eurocentric (and Western Europe_centric, for that matter) view of religion that has been present in previous iterations of Civ.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

Can you say 'mod editor'??? If you don't like a vanilla-game element, change it!

Personally, religion means little to me in the game.
As long as the design improves on what we are used to.

I fear you are blowing it out of all proportion.

Trust me, my mind is not absolutely 'MADE UP' just yet-I am just saying that, on the basis of what I know now, the bad elements appear to outweigh the good elements (and there ARE good elements!) If more good elements come to light, or if existing bad elements are improved so that they are no longer 'bad' (or if they are just better explained), then my opinion will certainly change!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

Does the future of the civ-franchise hinge upon your opinion, sir?

I hardly think so.

.

 

[Darwin420]

what religons would rise in the modern age?

I'd like to be able to mod in Humanism. Although not a deist belief system, many of us do not discount the possibility of a creater. It's a blend between science, logic, and agnosticism. Personally, I am a Spiritual Humanist, which means (essentially) that I believe there is a higher power, but since such a thing has not been empirically proven, I do not 'endorse' any particular deity.

I'd like to see THAT kind of modern thinking get added to the game.

For all my fellow Americans, just remember that our Founding Fathers weren't Christian, per se. They were Deist - belief in God, but not a particular religion.

It gets tricky, and I'm looking forward to how it will be treated in cIV.

I know that I'll be buying cIV shortly after it comes out, bugs and all. I've been playing the series since Civ1, and everytime the pre-release news has been somewhat disappointing, each game has been better than the last.

 

[Che Guava]

May be we can't use some resource like fish before fishing, game before hunting and wheat before agriculture? Or may be agriculture is needed for irrigation?

I guess, but that just seems like going back too far! I mean, in the beginning, you found a town of what, approx 10 000 people? That seems like a pretty high human density to be subsisting on berries and nuts. I thought that agriculture was pretty much a given when you begain, considering the timescale....

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Of course not, Curt-nor would I ever believe that to be the case! I was merely answering someones specific question in regards to purchasing Civ4, nothing more.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Slax]

something I don't get: you have to discover agriculture, hunting and fishing...what do your people eat up until that point???

I am sure these (and mining) allow bonus food, shields and gold to be gained, either automatically or through building an improvement.

 

[mastertyguy]

Hunting should not be the real name. Even animals can hunt. I think it means that you build advanced hunting weapons, or better tactics. I understand a fishing tech better than hunting. Fishing would maybe give food from sea and fresh water. If you can't fish, you can't get food from water. But hunting is more important in the survival. Before agriculture, it was the first way to get food. Maybe it is a free tech to every one (when you start the game, you see your poeple knows hunting, as in civ3 you see you know roads and irrigation).

 

[Maniac]

I like most of the info. :b:

I just consider some techs silly, and the way religions will appear.
As others mentioned, having to research Agriculture & Mining makes perfect sense if you start out as a nomad, but having to research Hunting and Fishing is just plain silly.

Also I don't like the techs Polytheism and Monotheism, as if the latter would be better or more advanced than the first one.

Instead of religions being linked to and created by being the first discovering a tech, I think a better idea would be that a religion was created in a city which accumulated a certain amount of culture, to speak in civ terms. Or perhaps even just as random appearances from time to time, to give the player the challenge and choice to fight or accept a new religion in your lands. Eg Buddhism that arose in Hindu lands.

 

[mastertyguy]

Maybe every tile give 1 food before agriculture and hunting, then, before you have agriculture, forest gives 2. You have a "nomadic civ". when you discover fishing, all water tiles give 2 food. But when you discover agriuculture, forest becomes 1 food and grass 2, and you can cut forest. With it, you can build irrigation.

 

[Darwin420]

Or maybe the techs in the screen shot are not in the final order... I noticed there were lots of ??'s on the tech list... Plus, having MACHINERY as a tier 2 tech??? With so few pre-reqs??

Something ain't right...

I'm willing to bet it's just a candy screen to entice us..

 

[Evie]

Historically, Polytheism *does* precede Monotheism. Some people argue that this change wasn't an improvement, and in some places (India, parts of Africa) it hasn't happened. But wherever monotheism emerged, it was preceded by polytheism.

Aussie (and others) - he'S right, you know. Polytheism was not always FOLLOWED by Monotheism (and Monotheism should certainly not be a requisite tech for tech advancement), but it virtually always PRECEDED it.

 

[dh_epic]

Polytheism doesn't lead to judaism or christinaty. according to the scriptures In the beggining was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.

Who wrote the scriptures? Can't say for sure, but I'd venture to say they were probably mortal, and probably fallable.

As a side note, atheists love to target falsehoods in the scriptures to prove that God doesn't exist. But it doesn't prove that God doesn't exist -- it only proves that the scriptures were written by people who can often be wrong.

Anyway, my real point:

Religion is VASTLY complex and it would be very hard to implement in Civ, unless you take the naive view that religions don't change.

The way the Firaxians seem to have gotten around this is by making religion into an empty label. It's actually quite clever. If you don't say what Christianity or Hinduism is but just say "it exists", then you've technically come up with the one eternal truth about those religions. You've come up with a model of religion that makes as much sense in 2000 BC as it does in 2000 AD.

Firaxis described religion in a way that it doesn't change, without relying on naive generalizations (e.g.: no traits, no unique units...). That's the brilliance.

 

[Vael]

Or maybe the techs in the screen shot are not in the final order... I noticed there were lots of ??'s on the tech list... Plus, having MACHINERY as a tier 2 tech??? With so few pre-reqs??

Something ain't right...

I'm willing to bet it's just a candy screen to entice us..

Tier 2 tech? What are you talking about? It has to be a shot from the middle of the tech tree - they wouldn't have arrows coming out of an empty edge of the screen...

 

[CurtSibling]

Of course not, Curt-nor would I ever believe that to be the case! I was merely answering someones specific question in regards to purchasing Civ4, nothing more.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

No sweat, I think your ideas have solid merit.

But we should give the developers a chance, I think it will work out fine.
A powerful editor will give us the chance to rename the religions all we wish..

...Even add as many more creeds as any player could dream up!

 

[QuoVadisNation]

I never cared for the ancient history that much, so I didn't study it yet. But, Polytheism definitely preceded Monotheism, and Monotheism was generally inspired by Polytheism.

I think the earliest account of Monotheism (as an attempt) was 3000-1000 BC by the Egyptians when some leader tried to merge all the gods into one God. But, as a result he was expelled and everything reverted back to normal.

The old testament additionally mentions the existence of Polytheism (be it demonized of course).

But, if you want more accurate information, I suggest bringing that argument into the World history forum.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I think the big problem with a Polytheism/Monotheism sequence is not the order but the dependence
(first of all in both cases one should be talking about Advanced or Formal Monotheism/Polytheism..since I'm sure in prehistory any people with capacity for abstract thought had a fairly wide range of belief about numbers and natures of gods, etc among the several thousand tribal groups scattered over the planet)

In anycase for some degree of historical modelling I was thinking it would be like
Judaism Tech in the prerequisite line for Christianity and Islam Techs

Hinduism Tech in the prerequisite line for Buddhism

But neither Hinduism nor Judaism techs being prerequisites for each other (allowing the development of Eastern and Western religions)

 

[JG99_Korab]

Who wrote the scriptures? Can't say for sure, but I'd venture to say they were probably mortal, and probably fallable.
.

Well, If you call yourslef a christian you should know that much. I t says in the scriptures that the Holy Spirit put the words in their mouths and inspired them. He told them what to say. Maybe not always A loud voice. Put he put it on their hearts.