Humankind Game by Amplitude

On the other hand, if following the logic of a culture's "emblematic achievements" as their affinity pick, then Han is far more remembered as an Expansionist instead of Scientist, and vice versa is true for Song.

Absolutely.
But, as @Krajzen points out, the Classical and Medieval Chinese Dynasties excelled or at least competed in so many areas that the game designer can pretty much go in whatever direction they want. Examples:

Han:
A heavy mouldboard wheeled cast iron plow was invented to tackled heavy wet soils and expand agriculture, so: Agrarian?
First paper manufactured, which was immediately applied to literature and art, so Aesthete or Scientific
"Dragon Kilns" invented, producing temperatures high enough to form true Porcelain, a major Trade Good for the next 1500 years. Merchant?

Song:
"Fire Lance" first mentioned: the first known gunpowder weapon. Scientific?
Also Bi Sheng, credited with inventing first moveable type (made of porcelain). Scientific again?
Also Su Song (Zirong), built one of the first escapements for a water clock, also hydraulic and mechanical engineer and astronomer. Scientific or Builder? (NOTE: His Water Clock, or Hun Yi could be a Wonder with Scientific bonuses)
Massive trade established with Southeast Asia and Indonesia area for spices, aromatic woods, and other 'luxury' goods, evidence for Merchant or Asthete.
First manuals for gunpowder and gunpowder weapons, decrees requiring gunpowder-bomb throwing trebuchets on all Song warships - Militant?

As said, you could go in a lot of different directions. On the other hand, also as posted, the Han are best known as Expansionist by policy and accomplishment, while the Song, given the fame of its achievements in poetry, painting, and calligraphical art, is probably best identified as Asthete.
 
While I agree with the general principle that many Chinese empires qualify for multiple affinities, the Song as militant doesn’t fit in my opinion. The Song founder decided, due to the memory of the An Lushan Rebellion and more directly the fact that he himself was a general who overthrew his ruler, to appoint unqualified civilian personnel to military command who would be incapable of acquiring the loyalty of their troops, a policy maintained throughout the dynasty. As a result, despite its vast array of sophisticated equipment and lavish military spending, the Song systematically punched below its weight militarily, ending with the first time all of China fell under foreign rule.
 
While I agree with the general principle that many Chinese empires qualify for multiple affinities, the Song as militant doesn’t fit in my opinion. The Song founder decided, due to the memory of the An Lushan Rebellion and more directly the fact that he himself was a general who overthrew his ruler, to appoint unqualified civilian personnel to military command who would be incapable of acquiring the loyalty of their troops, a policy maintained throughout the dynasty. As a result, despite its vast array of sophisticated equipment and lavish military spending, the Song systematically punched below its weight militarily, ending with the first time all of China fell under foreign rule.

No question, Song as Militant would be a historical 'outlier' and almost Counter-Historical. It would not be the first or last time that a nation with superior military technology proved utterly unable to use it.

A comparison might be the United States of the Industrial Era, when the entire US Army was about the size of a single division of any other army, but American arms manufacturers led trhe world and were supplying much of the world with advanced small arms. To the point that the Russo-Turkish War of 1877 - 1878 was referred to as the "Hartford War" because both sides were armed almost entirely with rifles (Remington, Winchester) manufactured in Hartford, Connecticut - but US forces were never issued any weapons from the same sources!
 
While I agree with the general principle that many Chinese empires qualify for multiple affinities, the Song as militant doesn’t fit in my opinion. The Song founder decided, due to the memory of the An Lushan Rebellion and more directly the fact that he himself was a general who overthrew his ruler, to appoint unqualified civilian personnel to military command who would be incapable of acquiring the loyalty of their troops, a policy maintained throughout the dynasty. As a result, despite its vast array of sophisticated equipment and lavish military spending, the Song systematically punched below its weight militarily, ending with the first time all of China fell under foreign rule.

I just want to add, that ironically the Mongol conquest has arguably led to the greatest ever spread of Chinese technology outside China proper, making Scientist affinity feel even more correct as a choice for Song dynasty :D
 
"Fire Lance" first mentioned: the first known gunpowder weapon

If the Song aren't in, I feel like this would be a cool generic unit unlocked with alchemy. If that makes too many units for the Medieval Era though, then maybe through the event system as a special unlock, like "you were the first to research alchemy" or "you have alchemy and also x amount of melee units" or something. Or, as an alternative to the Halberdier when upgrading melee units that has limited range but isn't quite a gunner.

As I understand it, fire lances were, with a few exceptions, mostly limited to China and were obsoleted by more advanced gunpowder weapons like rockets by the time they were spread out of the region, but it always feels a little weird that there's no intermediate weapon between swordsmen and guns to me. Ming Rocket Cart sort of addresses this, and obviously if the Song were included fire lances would be an excellent candidate for an EU, but if the Song aren't in I think generic fire lances/ early rockets would be cool to see in the game somehow.
 
If the Song aren't in, I feel like this would be a cool generic unit unlocked with alchemy. If that makes too many units for the Medieval Era though, then maybe through the event system as a special unlock, like "you were the first to research alchemy" or "you have alchemy and also x amount of melee units" or something. Or, as an alternative to the Halberdier when upgrading melee units that has limited range but isn't quite a gunner.

As I understand it, fire lances were, with a few exceptions, mostly limited to China and were obsoleted by more advanced gunpowder weapons like rockets by the time they were spread out of the region, but it always feels a little weird that there's no intermediate weapon between swordsmen and guns to me. Ming Rocket Cart sort of addresses this, and obviously if the Song were included fire lances would be an excellent candidate for an EU, but if the Song aren't in I think generic fire lances/ early rockets would be cool to see in the game somehow.

I have always found it annoying, how generic military unit progression in games like this is always strictly western military history. You can't get medieval gunpowder units or generic horse archers or cataphracts, but everybody always has knights, lancers, arquebusiers etc. Same with ships - no junks, no dhows, no turtle ships, no Malayan tech, but always Western ship designs.

I'd love to see a game with generic unis being largely dependant on the environment. So anybody can have war elephants, camelry, horse archers, obsidian swords, medieval gun units, war canoes etc depending on local civ using local geography. Unique units had by certain civs would be simply even better.
 
If the Song aren't in, I feel like this would be a cool generic unit unlocked with alchemy. If that makes too many units for the Medieval Era though, then maybe through the event system as a special unlock, like "you were the first to research alchemy" or "you have alchemy and also x amount of melee units" or something. Or, as an alternative to the Halberdier when upgrading melee units that has limited range but isn't quite a gunner.

The hand cannon, a successor to the fire lance was a way more widespread gunpowder unit, I could imagine it being a generic choice for late medieval.

I don't think than it's all about "western military" biase, I mean this biases exists in all these games, these arbitrary choices on tech allow to create a progression through the game.

But Cataphracts were knew in Europe since classical times. As Romans knew crossbows but only used it for hunting comparativly to chineses which used it a lot in warfare. In late medieval, gunpowder was rather well widespread in Europe (later than in the east, but still), just look at Burgundians armies.
So no. It's not about "strictly western military history", or we should have some skirmishers in classical (javelins were massivly used by romans, greeks, celts, huns, etc ...), some classical heavy cavalry (cataphracts were used as mercenaries in Romans armies), medieval hand canoneers and some medieval siege canon.

But, there is some limits, and the eras need to feel different too. Hopefully, Humankind found a gamey way to break the limit of era technology barrier with Scientist cultures.
Scientist Song would be a great addition for that imo.

For the ships, it would be great to have some "variants". But honestly I understand than it's hard for these games to focus on that. Before medieval, we don't know enough about navy outside mediterranean world . Age of Empires II had the good idea to just vary the sails. (junk, dhow, galley, etc... sails ) .But when we reach Early Modern navy and after, it's honestly meaningless, you just want to play the "what if Haunesaunee get the Man'o'War first ?" not stuck them with some fantasy ships... And some units as Turtle Ships are perfect as unique unit.
 
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I have always found it annoying, how generic military unit progression in games like this is always strictly western military history. You can't get medieval gunpowder units or generic horse archers or cataphracts, but everybody always has knights, lancers, arquebusiers etc. Same with ships - no junks, no dhows, no turtle ships, no Malayan tech, but always Western ship designs.

I'd love to see a game with generic unis being largely dependant on the environment. So anybody can have war elephants, camelry, horse archers, obsidian swords, medieval gun units, war canoes etc depending on local civ using local geography. Unique units had by certain civs would be simply even better.
I agree, it would be awesome to have a far less static unit tree on these kinds of games.

What if the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese, and Majapahit colonized North America and set up trading posts in Europe and Africa? Would we still be using Line Infantry and Cuirassiers? Would be super cool to have culture/cultural exchange have a greater effect on things like that.
 
If the Song aren't in, I feel like this would be a cool generic unit unlocked with alchemy. If that makes too many units for the Medieval Era though, then maybe through the event system as a special unlock, like "you were the first to research alchemy" or "you have alchemy and also x amount of melee units" or something. Or, as an alternative to the Halberdier when upgrading melee units that has limited range but isn't quite a gunner.

As I understand it, fire lances were, with a few exceptions, mostly limited to China and were obsoleted by more advanced gunpowder weapons like rockets by the time they were spread out of the region, but it always feels a little weird that there's no intermediate weapon between swordsmen and guns to me. Ming Rocket Cart sort of addresses this, and obviously if the Song were included fire lances would be an excellent candidate for an EU, but if the Song aren't in I think generic fire lances/ early rockets would be cool to see in the game somehow.

Going to try to address everybody's posts here without filling another page with 'Quotes':

The "Fire Lance" is first described in 950 CE, but not specifically mentioned in use until about 1130 CE: at about the same time the first "hand cannon" firing projectiles is also described (1128 CE at Dazu, China)
BUT in 1280 CE (barely 150 years later) Italian city states are described as including "hand cannon" among their armies.

That would make the Hand Cannon a good candidate for a Late Medieval Ranged unit, except they really don't seem to have had any major effect on the battlefield, either in Europe or China - being shorter ranged and less accurate than either bows or crossbows.

The Huo Long Jing, or "Fire Dragon Manual" of 1395 CE describes all the gunpowder-derived weaponry developed in China since about 1280 CE, but, unfortunately, doesn't give us more accurate dates than "since 1355 (roughly)" for the use of Hand Cannon, Wheeled Cannon, bombs, grenades, land nd naval mines, fire arrows, etc.
But the definite first use of a Bombard in Europe (France, to be specific) was 1375 CE when one was used to put a hole in a city wall, and just 5 years later they are recorded being mounted on Venetian Galleys and killing a Genoese admiral with "artillery fire" at the Battle of Chiogga.

In 1470 CE a shoulder stock as added to the Hackbus, a defensive gunpowder weapon mounted on walls, to make it the Arquebus, with a matchlock trigger mechanism (1472 CE) the first gunpowder bullet-thrower that could be aimed from the shoulder and fired by one man.
About 20 years later (1 -2 Game Turns?) they are combined with pikes (and halberds and swordsmen) by fhe Spanish into Colunelas of 1000 men each, the first "pike and shot" units anywhere.

In 1475 CE occurs the last known use of a trebuchet or catapult in a European siege - 100 years after the first Bombard, they had made all the older Siege weaponry Obsolete. (55 years later 3 Colunelas are combined into the more-famous Tercio, which becomes the standard Tactical pike & shot unit in the Spanish Army for the next 150 years)

To summarize:

The Hand Cannon of the late Medieval (1130 - 1280 CE) is an appropriate general ranged unit for that period, but is not really a significant improvement over existing ranged weapons, so just a little pointless.

The numerous Chinese defensive and siege weaponry, like naval and land mines and gunpowder grenades and bombs, I submit are better indicated as improvements in Defensive Strength of fortifications from about 1200 CE on.

The Bombard of about 1375 CE (and made of cast iron from about 1410 CE on) is the first Decisive gunpowder weapon: it literally made all previous stone defensive walls Instantly Obsolete, which included not only all the defended cities in Europe, but also all the Castles cluttering up the countryside, which shortly thereafter became either Chateaus or Manor Houses or picturesque Ruins (cue the Romantic Movement of the early 19th century, which 'repurposed' many of them)

About 100 years Later comes the true Hand Gun, the Arquebus. Note that this sequence is the opposite of every Civ game so far, which always introduces the 'Musketman' earlier in the Tech Tree - wrongly.

Now, in Humankind (at least according to what I could glean out of the Tech Tree in the Victor Open Dev just concluded):

In the Medieval Era they introduce the Knight, Pikeman, Crossbowman (no surprises there) but also the Great Swordsman (Civ VI's new Man-at-Arms, basically)
In the Early Modern (Renaissance) Era they have the Halberdier - an Upgraded Pikeman, and the Arquebusier and 'Mortar' - the Mortar is actually a Bombard, based on both the artwork and the narrative that goes with it: "... These early cannons fire enormous solid shot to break down city walls". Unfortunately, it comes a full tier of Tech after the Arquebusier, thus perpetuating the mistake made in Civ VI, and the unit is completely mislabeled.

They do not have any new cavalry units in the Early Modern Era, thus missing the Gens d'armes armored knights that tried replacing the lance with pistols. Since this was a huge step back in cavalry effectiveness, there is a reason both Civ and Humankind pass them by!
 
I wonder now who will be modern militarist, maybe it's Japan after all although I wouldn't like to associate this culture with its "war crimes era". But again, I was against militarist Germany as well, and you could easily spot a dark undertone in US expansionism here, so maybe I am too delicate in this regard...

Modern Japan should honestly probably be Aestethe even more than Merchant or Scientist - it is a superpower in the global influence of its culture, art, media, tech design etc (yes I include anime here)

If we are going to miss such positive display of Japan in favour of its War Crimes Era I will be really disappointed. Devs could go for Vietnam or even Soviets in terms of "not offensive to almost anybody" modern warriors. And I say it as a Polish person, with my country de facto occupied by them - they weren't nearly as bad as Japan was ;)

"But what about Mongols". Mongols (besides their crimes being greatly over exaggerated) were not THAT "exceptional" for their era. In 20th century, after global spread of humanist ideas and clear moral alternatives, we expect more from its empires, that's why I have a problem with Devs affirming militarist modern Japan but I don't have it with Mongols, Zulu etc.

Another possibility is Japan being not in the roster now, which would be somewhat bizarre due to their enormous and exceptional importance in this era.
 
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So if one preorders Humankind, it's possible to play the pre-release version right now?

No unfortunately. There was the OpenDev last April for those who pre-Ordered but the period has long past, and we don't know when they'll have another one
 
Speaking of contemporary warfare I wonder how nuclear weapons will be represented. I hope there will at least be Civ 4-style true ICBMs.
 
Oh, we will all char together when we char
And let there be no moaning of the bar
Just sing out a Te Deum
When you see that I.C.B.M.
And the party will be come-as-you-are

:mischief:
 
Mutual assured destruction (once you attack a nuclear armed competitor you automatically lose the game) would make sense.

Mutual Insured Destruction: If you attack a nuclear-armed opponent with a nuclear weapon, the game immediately Crashes to Desktop and Uninstalls, erasing all your game and save files.
Now THAT would be a Deterrent!

And we'll all go together when we go
Every Hottentot and every Eskimo
When the air becomes Uranius
We will all go simultaneous
"Cause we'll all go together when we go
 
So, as someone completely new to this forum (and admittedly not superbly knowledgeable on Humankind stuff), I have a couple questions.

The next culture reveal is slated to be on June 1st, correct?

Do they have a specific time of day set, or does that vary?

What culture are we expecting from our list of "yet to be revealed"? :mischief:
 
The next culture reveal is slated to be on June 1st, correct?

Yup.

Do they have a specific time of day set, or does that vary?

The cultural reveals always have a specific time - Tuesday 1200 in EDT, 1700 in BST, or 1800 in CEST.

What culture are we expecting from our list of "yet to be revealed"? :mischief:

Spoiler :
The reveal of Soviets last week was not following the alphabetical order, so next week it can be either Japan or Sweden.
 
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