Humankind Game by Amplitude

[Revanchist]

I loved Endless Legend's combat system, so seeing it brought back in line more akin to Civilization is understandable, but extremely disappointing. There was something spectacular about not only being able to rule your civilization, but also being the supreme commander and seeing how your troops fared in combat with your authority. Smashing units together just doesn't have the same feel or sense of accomplishment.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

I loved Endless Legend's combat system, so seeing it brought back in line more akin to Civilization is understandable, but extremely disappointing. There was something spectacular about not only being able to rule your civilization, but also being the supreme commander and seeing how your troops fared in combat with your authority. Smashing units together just doesn't have the same feel or sense of accomplishment.

What?! Humankind does use a similar combat system to EL. You spread your units on the map just like EL and fight tactical combat.

 

[Revanchist]

What?! Humankind does use a similar combat system to EL. You spread your units on the map just like EL and fight tactical combat.

From what I have heard it is not as similar/intuitive to Endless Legend and is more in line with civilization

GamerZakh says that you aren't able to plan out the moves and 'watch them play out'. There may still be a battlefield, but the lack of interactivity is what worries me. We haven't seen everything Humankind has to offer regarding combat yet, and I will wait for more details, but I wanted something a lot more personalized.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

From what I have heard it is not as similar/intuitive to Endless Legend and is more in line with civilization

GamerZakh says that you aren't able to plan out the moves and 'watch them play out'. There may still be a battlefield, but the lack of interactivity is what worries me. We haven't seen everything Humankind has to offer regarding combat yet, and I will wait for more details, but I wanted something a lot more personalized.

That video probably has a lot of speculation because the devs could not show actual combat yet. That's why he is drawing little stick figures on the screen because he did not have any actual combat to show. I'm pretty sure we will be able to control units in tactical combat.

Let's wait and see actual combat. The game is still alpha so a lot of the combat mechanics are probably not finalized yet.

 

[notNamed]

GamerZakh says that you aren't able to plan out the moves and 'watch them play out'.

He's referring to the Endless Legend style of battles where you give out orders to the units and when the battle happens, it is up to them to carry them out.
As opposed to the system in most SRPG games, Humankind included, where you have omnipresent and omnipotent control of your units, always know what's happening and always give them exact orders they then "carry out" as in chess as opposed to a more real battlefield where they have agency and can't wait for you to send in new orders if enemy takes the spot they were ordered to go to, or were supposed to fire on someone who's not there, etc.

That video probably has a lot of speculation because the devs could not show actual combat yet.

They have shown actual combat both to all the people playing the preview build as well as live during the IGN presentation. What they haven't finished is the battle UI, hence why they can't show it off in full.

 

[Siptah]

He's referring to the Endless Legend style of battles where you give out orders to the units and when the battle happens, it is up to them to carry them out.
As opposed to the system in most SRPG games, Humankind included, where you have omnipresent and omnipotent control of your units, always know what's happening and always give them exact orders they then "carry out" as in chess as opposed to a more real battlefield where they have agency and can't wait for you to send in new orders if enemy takes the spot they were ordered to go to, or were supposed to fire on someone who's not there, etc.


They have shown actual combat both to all the people playing the preview build as well as live during the IGN presentation. What they haven't finished is the battle UI, hence why they can't show it off in full.

I hope that, like in EL and unlike in civ, the turn based combat still requires you to command your units around in a certain order based on unit type/initiative. That would make it more interesting imho.

 

[notNamed]

I hope that, like in EL and unlike in civ, the turn based combat still requires you to command your units around in a certain order based on unit type/initiative. That would make it more interesting imho.

There's no initiative in the battle system right now. One side moves all their units, then the other side and so on. XCOM/Disgaea style instead of the HoMM/FF:Tactics one.
Keep in mind that the OpenDev scenarios which are coming up are focused mostly on battle feedback. Depending on how people feel about them, these systems could still change.

 

[FinalDoomsday]

it did feel pretty immersive in Endless Legend that you handed out orders that the unit then had to attempt to carry out based on its intitative score. I dont think people were used to having so little control though. there was a setting in advanced options to make it so you could only hand out orders every 2 turns of combat I never braved that though! I'm interested to see their current combat system for starters the animation and visuals look much more pleasing.

 

[Prester John 2]

It would be a welcome change from the current Civ if the AIs had a chance against the Human player, especially in the later eras with more units and strategy.

 

[notNamed]

I dont think people were used to having so little control though. there was a setting in advanced options to make it so you could only hand out orders every 2 turns of combat I never braved that though!

Yeah, it's one of those things which creates headaches in real battle situations so games, naturally designed to be a fun experience, omit it entirely.
There is place for these sort of mechanics but it's really for people who know what they are getting into. If the opportunity arises, playing Kriegsspiel (wargame with a dungeon master, essentially) against Total War or Warhammer players is a very fun experience which adds a lot of the stuff that video games like Total War simply glance over. Just like TRPGs offer a completely unique experience compared to PC RPGs.

 

[Revanchist]

Yeah, it's one of those things which creates headaches in real battle situations so games, naturally designed to be a fun experience, omit it entirely.
There is place for these sort of mechanics but it's really for people who know what they are getting into. If the opportunity arises, playing Kriegsspiel (wargame with a dungeon master, essentially) against Total War or Warhammer players is a very fun experience which adds a lot of the stuff that video games like Total War simply glance over. Just like TRPGs offer a completely unique experience compared to PC RPGs.

Thankfully Endless Legend had the option to auto resolve battles which I am sure this one will. That way there is a compromise between players who want a quick and to the point resolution and players that want drawn out experiences that are more immersive

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

From all the comments above, watching the videos, and the 'Battle' OpenDev that's coming up, I will predict that the following questions still have to be resolved in the Humankind Battle System:

1. Exact way of controlling the units: initiative-based as in EL, or individual Orders.
2. AI ability to handle either one.
3. Bonuses, either to units or combinations of units, terrain, ranged versus melee, flanking, mounted movement versus foot - in other words, all the persnickity aspects of 'balance'
4. Promotions and/or Upgrades - which as far as I can tell, haven't been mentioned yet.
5. Aspects of Naval Combat - which has also been conspicuously absent from releases yet.
6. Late Game Combat, including long range missiles/artillery, air power, Nuclear Weapons, and other arcana of the End Game.
7. They've mentioned being able to Reinforce a battle that lasts more than one Game Turn. That's new, at least compared with Civ 1UPT combat, so that probably needs to be finalized. For instance, does the distance Reinforcements have to move to reach the battlefield influence how many Battle Phases they have when they get there - that is, do all Reinforcements arrive at once on the following turn(s), or are they 'staged'?

I suspect that all the early to mid-game units and Emblematic Units have been done but the exact factors and bonuses and how they work have still to be finalized. I base this on lots of complete-looking videos of both regular and Emblematic early units but the lack of many examples of those same graphically-complete units in in-game combat. What has been completed about the Late Game is, as far as I can tell, still a mystery, but if they've completed the Faction list for all Eras I would presume they have also completed the list of regular and Emblematic Units for those Eras.

I also suspect, though, that any bonuses or Combat Factor numbers we see now are Subject To Change as they 'tweak' the combat system and the balance issues.

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

GamerZakh says that you aren't able to plan out the moves and 'watch them play out'. There may still be a battlefield, but the lack of interactivity is what worries me. We haven't seen everything Humankind has to offer regarding combat yet, and I will wait for more details, but I wanted something a lot more personalized.

As some others have pointed out, what GamerZakh means is that in Humankind, you will be assuming direct control. You don't issue a plan for all of your units and then watch it play out (or not, depending on how robust your plan is against changes ini the situation), but rather you issue orders one unit at a time.

That video probably has a lot of speculation because the devs could not show actual combat yet. That's why he is drawing little stick figures on the screen because he did not have any actual combat to show. I'm pretty sure we will be able to control units in tactical combat.

There's not really any big speculation in GamerZakh's video, but of course not everything is 100% clear, what with him having to rely on the stick figures. Given how many iterations I have seen on the combat UI since we had our Event, I can see why our production team asked us to not show it yet. But like everybody at the event, Zakh had the opportunity to experience the battles, and from his discription it's clear to me he did try them out.

it did feel pretty immersive in Endless Legend that you handed out orders that the unit then had to attempt to carry out based on its intitative score. I dont think people were used to having so little control though. there was a setting in advanced options to make it so you could only hand out orders every 2 turns of combat I never braved that though! I'm interested to see their current combat system for starters the animation and visuals look much more pleasing.

I played with that setting way back in Early Access, when it was the default option (And I think there were options for orders every 3 turns or even 6 turns). Back then, you really had to engage with the core conceit of this system and "plan for the unplanned." The difference between the Offensive and Defensive stance felt more pronounced back then, too. Reducing the default setting to one turn was the first response to the feedback that many players felt frustrated by the lack of control.

Thankfully Endless Legend had the option to auto resolve battles which I am sure this one will. That way there is a compromise between players who want a quick and to the point resolution and players that want drawn out experiences that are more immersive

We have an option to automate the battle at the moment, but we're still working on "quick resolution."

3. Bonuses, either to units or combinations of units, terrain, ranged versus melee, flanking, mounted movement versus foot - in other words, all the persnickity aspects of 'balance'

I think we do have some nice surprises in store for the variety of effects and abilities.

5. Aspects of Naval Combat - which has also been conspicuously absent from releases yet.

As far as I can tell, the naval combat animations are not ready to be shown yet. Personally I think the changes to naval exploration are more interesting than those to naval combat (with one particular exception), and I know the changes to exploration have been mentioned in at least one article.

6. Late Game Combat, including long range missiles/artillery, air power, Nuclear Weapons, and other arcana of the End Game.

Oh, I think we have some really nice surprises for you all in store on those topics...

I also suspect, though, that any bonuses or Combat Factor numbers we see now are Subject To Change as they 'tweak' the combat system and the balance issues.

As our colleagues at PDS like to say: "Not Final Numbers are Not Final."

 

[ost]

Thank you @Catoninetales_Amplitude for all of the info!

I think we do have some nice surprises in store for the variety of effects and abilities.

I would love to see battlefield vision as a key consideration in Humankind - although I think it is unlikely to be implemented in the way that I imagine due to logistical game design issues and maybe practical gameplay issues (might heavily favour a defensive posture for example). But, if in the absence of high-ground or other advantageous terrain you could only see a single hex in front of your units (or maybe in forest, totally obscured vision - for both player and enemy) it would create a lot of interesting tactical possibilities - like secretly moving cavalry to the flanks a la Hannibal at the Battle of the Trebia River. It would also put a lot of emphasis on your initial battlefield deployment, which I always enjoyed in Endless Legend!

It would also be interesting if the player has somewhat limited knowledge of the enemy army composition.

 

[Siptah]

It would also be interesting if the player has somewhat limited knowledge of the enemy army composition.

I haven't played it in a while, so I might remember it wrong, but I think in EL you only saw the number of units and the one type of hero/unit on the map until you clicked on attack. This was actually quite nicely done.

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

I would love to see battlefield vision as a key consideration in Humankind - although I think it is unlikely to be implemented in the way that I imagine due to logistical game design issues and maybe practical gameplay issues (might heavily favour a defensive posture for example). But, if in the absence of high-ground or other advantageous terrain you could only see a single hex in front of your units (or maybe in forest, totally obscured vision - for both player and enemy) it would create a lot of interesting tactical possibilities - like secretly moving cavalry to the flanks a la Hannibal at the Battle of the Trebia River. It would also put a lot of emphasis on your initial battlefield deployment, which I always enjoyed in Endless Legend!

Limited vision and line of sight in battles? Now wouldn't that be interesting...

 

[Zaarin]

you will be assuming direct control.

I guess I'll have to brush up on getting my eyes to glow yellow and being the harbinger of the other cultures' perfection.

We have an option to automate the battle at the moment, but we're still working on "quick resolution."

For those of us who prefer to keep combat brief and focus on building, that option will be much appreciated (ES2's space combat suits me just fine, for example).

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

. . . For those of us who prefer to keep combat brief and focus on building, that option will be much appreciated (ES2's space combat suits me just fine, for example).

Automatic Battles is almost a Must Have in a game of the scope of Humankind (or Civ). Even a concentrated military historian like myself gets really tired of fighting individual battles after 300 + turns!
- There are only so many ways you can pull off a flank attack, and after that, it gets boring fast . . .

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

I agree on that. Even I don't play out all the battles in Endless Legend and Endless Space 2, and I am a staunch defender of the core concept of these systems (even as I keep rambling about some of the implementation...)
We do already have automation. The trickier part is the "quick resolution," as it needs to be fast, but also feel accurate to the player. We want to avoid any feelings of "I should not have clicked autoresolve, I would have done better" as much as possible (and on the flipside, avoid the "autoresolve doomstack" that I have heard of in some games were certain unit types did disproportionally well in autoresolved battles.)

 

[FinalDoomsday]

I dont think theres anyone who plays out every single battle in games with seperate tactical layer battles. Some are just so one sided its pointless or the fight is not so pivotal that autoresolve losing you a unit or two is no big deal.

But equally a situation where autoresolve gives you the same or better results than if you fought yourself? I'm not sure... that seems like an incentive for avoiding a core game mechanic. I guess If you have the discipline not to use auto resolve unless its a completly one sided fight it would be okay but it would still feel like your being penalised for wanting to engage with combat. I think I'm misunderstanding you though as I don't belive thats your intention.

I understand this is not Total War, battles are not the main event but even some of those games had issues where autoresolve could get outcomes that would be impossible in actual battle and it feels cheap that I can skip bloody battles and come out far cleaner than I would have done. I hope that kind of situation can be avoided.