Humankind Game by Amplitude

[Elhoim]

I think it’s a totally valid concern.

The underlying systems are obviously the biggest novelty in the first few games, especially for a player coming from Civ 6. But ultimately a big part of the replay value, and let’s not forget, one of the headline features of Humankind, is how you choose cultures each era. If those cultures all end up playing the same way, there’s no point in there being 60 to combine! One of Civ 6’s strongest features for me is how your choice of Civ has a big impact on how you go about playing the game, and I think it’s a lesson Humankind should learn.

I don't disagree with you, my point was the complaint was about a minor part of a bigger system coming out of a culture card without any mechanics or numbers, which are what will set the civ as interesting or bland. Plus it's not you are going to play with the culture for 300 turns. Here are some with numbers:

Spoiler Culture Cards with Mechanics :

As FinalDoomsday said:

The legacy traits sound really impactful though, the fact you keep them for the rest of the game means you can make your own culture and power players will probably get a kick out of making powerful combinations. Most Civ 6 factions really don't feel that unique to play at least to me you'll get a unique unit or two that will be relevant for a little while. You you might get a bonus that's pretty nice that helps you along the way to your already chosen victory, or a bonus thats so situational you might never get to use it or you just get a map or situation that plays against your strengths or it plays so much in your favour you steam away.

Basically, the culture by itself doesn't need to be groundbreakingly interesting, as it would be 1/6th of your "Civilization". It's about mixing and matching different ones, creating "combos", and how you pile-up the different legacy traits to creating your own custom civ. And compared to Civ, you get 6 unique units to play around with, and 6 unique quarters (just noticed Trav'ling Canuck pointed out the same thing ).

 

[Krajzen]

I think cultural traits are simple on purpose, and the general design philosophy of the game is "less is more" - simple rules which generate procedurally a lot of depth when combined with other mechanics. At least I hope for that.

Also, the game on release will have over 3 times as many cultures as civ6. We are going to change them many times during one game. Imagine if each culture had 10-15 separate bonuses like in civ6, we'd all go insane.

Also, it's hard for me to explain why, but I think in HK it is more important for cultures within one era to be balanced than for Civ factions to be balanced overall. Maybe because they are usually going to be rivals you choose from among. And the fancier and stranger bonuses are, the harder to balance them.

Also, the stranger bonuses are, the harder it is for AI to use them. Look at civ5 and civ6. I'd wage something like half of unique bonuses of factions in those games are "wasted" in hands of AI, as they are too complicated to be comprehended by it.

 

[cathar knight]

This might be a case where our experience with Civ impacts our expectations for HK. In Civ, you pick a civilization and play the whole game as that civilization. The uniques of that particular civilization drive the whole game experience.

HK is designed around something quite different: the merging and combining of different cultural uniques. Each culture you choose adds only 1/6th of your total "civilization" bonuses by the time you reach the final era. In other words, small differences between each culture may be enough to drive large differences in how your overall civilization plays in HK, whereas in Civ the differences have to all be preloaded at the start.

I hope that the new, underlying mechanics of Humankind will be interesting and compelling to give a whole new experience; and of course, the "melting pot" of cultures to produce your "own civilization" is one of the things that caught my attention in the first place. But that 1/6 of the whole total at the end game is what "worries" me.
If they are starting to look more or less the same, the resulting "civilization" towards the end of the campaign won't vary much, won't be very unique. I don't know, but it is what I feel.
And I'm not even talking about the choices made for the different cultures in the different eras; of course, we all here have different tastes and opinions about that, and so the devs, logically.
There are some with which I was surprised to say the least, the last of them being the Portuguese missing in the early modern era and the choice of "gothic cathedral" as unique quarter for the Spanish...at least call it "late gothic cathedral"!
You see, despite the fact that I'm also well suprised with the overall look of the game and even with some choices in terms of cultures present, there are little things like those I mentioned that sometimes feel a bit underwhelming. But as someone said, we're still a year away...

 

[Krajzen]

There are some with which I was surprised to say the least, the last of them being the Portuguese missing in the early modern era

I was not suprised by this. In the end, you have to choose only 10 cultures from an entire world for this era, with 4 - 5 at most being European, and Portugal its similar to Spain (in culture) and Dutch (in sea affinity), so it has always been likely to be excluded in the beginning. You could argue (quite succesfully) that it was definitely among top 10 most influential powers in the early modern era, but there are also other factors for the inclusion of initial 10.
Such as geographic diversity - that's why I am way more surprised by the lack of Subsaharan Africa in the EM era, I thought we are going for gentle "one African culture per era" it is is very easy to achieve (ironically, EM era has probably the most possible Subsaharan civilizations).

 

[Siptah]

Here's the French Direct video:

Humankind starts around 53:37. Nothing new there.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Also, it's hard for me to explain why, but I think in HK it is more important for cultures within one era to be balanced than for Civ factions to be balanced overall. Maybe because they are usually going to be rivals you choose from among. And the fancier and stranger bonuses are, the harder to balance them.

I think that's a valid concern. If there are noticeable power differences amongst same-era cultures, HK will introduce a new type of snowballing, where doing well early lets you transition into the next era faster, pick the most powerful culture for that era and thus transition into the following era faster, and so on.

But that 1/6 of the whole total at the end game is what "worries" me.
If they are starting to look more or less the same, the resulting "civilization" towards the end of the campaign won't vary much, won't be very unique. I don't know, but it is what I feel.

I think that's a valid concern, too. If getting a Food bonus in Era 1 means I then look for a culture with an Industry bonus in Era 2 and one with a Science bonus in Era 3, while someone else goes Science then Food then Industry, will both empires play pretty much the same entering Era 4? I don't know.

I personally lean towards the idea that small, simple, somewhat similar bonuses are a better game design choice at this stage, and that the journey will matter (i.e. that Food then Industry then Science will feel different than Science-Food-Industry). At the very least, I think it's easier to patch in more diversity of bonuses later than it would be to launch with too much complexity and imbalance and try to simplify later.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I think that's a valid concern. If there are noticeable power differences amongst same-era cultures, HK will introduce a new type of snowballing, where doing well early lets you transition into the next era faster, pick the most powerful culture for that era and thus transition into the following era faster, and so on.




I think that's a valid concern, too. If getting a Food bonus in Era 1 means I then look for a culture with an Industry bonus in Era 2 and one with a Science bonus in Era 3, while someone else goes Science then Food then Industry, will both empires play pretty much the same entering Era 4? I don't know.

I personally lean towards the idea that small, simple, somewhat similar bonuses are a better game design choice at this stage, and that the journey will matter (i.e. that Food then Industry then Science will feel different than Science-Food-Industry). At the very least, I think it's easier to patch in more diversity of bonuses later than it would be to launch with too much complexity and imbalance and try to simplify later.

We've already seen that the Humankind terrain has Food, Production, more rarely Science Bonuses per Tile in various combinations. I would have to say, then, that the In-Game Geographical Situation both from the start (first region, first city) and later is going to determine what bonuses you are looking for and what Factions you are going to want to choose. Then, of course, you have to have a 2nd choice handy because, with only 10 possible choices, there's a chance you won't get complete control over your choice of Faction.

I can foresee other factors, like access to Natural Wonders, trade routes (coastal regions or distance to neighbors) and especially as the game goes on, Neighboring Factions (I think being neighbor to, say, the Huns or Goths or Mongols would definitely influence your choice of Factions, as you look for one that can defend itself!) will 'warp' any Perfect Progression of Bonuses in almost every game.

 

[Shadowhal]

We've already seen that the Humankind terrain has Food, Production, more rarely Science Bonuses per Tile in various combinations. I would have to say, then, that the In-Game Geographical Situation both from the start (first region, first city) and later is going to determine what bonuses you are looking for and what Factions you are going to want to choose. Then, of course, you have to have a 2nd choice handy because, with only 10 possible choices, there's a chance you won't get complete control over your choice of Faction.

I can foresee other factors, like access to Natural Wonders, trade routes (coastal regions or distance to neighbors) and especially as the game goes on, Neighboring Factions (I think being neighbor to, say, the Huns or Goths or Mongols would definitely influence your choice of Factions, as you look for one that can defend itself!) will 'warp' any Perfect Progression of Bonuses in almost every game.

I'd say pretty much this.

In Civ, one tends to adapt the strategy to the civilization chosen. In HK, it seems like strategy comes first and determines what culture best allows the player to pursue that strategy. And strategy in turn is determined by the world around you, the terrain and the major and minor factions.

So, in way, games may start in more similar ways, but have the potential to branch out more. To ensure variety across turns, I think it would be important to have a good variety of map types and set-up options. The various iterations of Civ and user-generated map scripts should give ample inspiration. Perfect world was a cool one, as were Rhye's RFC Rand map scripts that emulated Earth to various degrees of likeness.

Also, I wonder whether parameters pertaining to AI behaviour may make sense. Now that we won't be able to pick specific cultures to play against, should we have options to specify certain players to be aggressive, economic, expansionist etc.? Not that it helps AI work to have more than one main routine to get right (nor do I actually ever specifically select opponents, randomisation is fun there), but just a thought ...

 

[Krajzen]

I am still fascinated by the idea of both your and opponents factions evolving largely unexpectedly. Not only you have no idea at all what cultures are you going to face at any era, you are often not going to get your perfect dream setup. Every game is a travel of discovery in itself. Unexpected identity, evolving world, random events, dynamic political systems, infinite combinations of cultures and strategies, insane combat scenarios (insane in the best way), and we barely took a glimpse behind all those creative systems.

It has been a lovely adventure to observe the early life cycle of Humankind with you all, folks, and even participate in the open dev. For a while I am going to go to the intensive care in hospital for God knows how long, no internet connection, I hope I can rejoin this subforum soon.

 

[CivLuvah]

I am still fascinated by the idea of both your and opponents factions evolving largely unexpectedly. Not only you have no idea at all what cultures are you going to face at any era, you are often not going to get your perfect dream setup. Every game is a travel of discovery in itself. Unexpected identity, evolving world, random events, dynamic political systems, infinite combinations of cultures and strategies, insane combat scenarios (insane in the best way), and we barely took a glimpse behind all those creative systems.

It has been a lovely adventure to observe the early life cycle of Humankind with you all, folks, and even participate in the open dev. For a while I am going to go to the intensive care in hospital for God knows how long, no internet connection, I hope I can rejoin this subforum soon.

Szybkiego powrotu do zdrowia.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I am still fascinated by the idea of both your and opponents factions evolving largely unexpectedly. Not only you have no idea at all what cultures are you going to face at any era, you are often not going to get your perfect dream setup. Every game is a travel of discovery in itself. Unexpected identity, evolving world, random events, dynamic political systems, infinite combinations of cultures and strategies, insane combat scenarios (insane in the best way), and we barely took a glimpse behind all those creative systems.

It has been a lovely adventure to observe the early life cycle of Humankind with you all, folks, and even participate in the open dev. For a while I am going to go to the intensive care in hospital for God knows how long, no internet connection, I hope I can rejoin this subforum soon.

I agree, the potential for the behaviour of your neighbours to suddenly change is one of the more interesting aspects of HK. When the peaceful farmers to your north turn into raiding Vikings, it may force you to adjust your play to deal with what the game is throwing at you. I'm looking forward to the potential dynamism that may create in the game world.

Wishing you all the best on your hospital care!

 

[tedhebert]

It has been a lovely adventure to observe the early life cycle of Humankind with you all, folks, and even participate in the open dev. For a while I am going to go to the intensive care in hospital for God knows how long, no internet connection, I hope I can rejoin this subforum soon.

god bless !

 

[Shadowhal]

It has been a lovely adventure to observe the early life cycle of Humankind with you all, folks, and even participate in the open dev. For a while I am going to go to the intensive care in hospital for God knows how long, no internet connection, I hope I can rejoin this subforum soon.

I wish a good recovery and hope you are better again soon.

 

[CivLuvah]

There's going to be new gameplay footage for Humankind at Gamescom today:

https://twitter.com/humankindgame/status/1299312694810554369?s=19

 

[Siptah]

I had hoped that this would be the case. Let‘s hope it’s really some tasty new content and information.

 

[Meluhhan]

It has been a lovely adventure to observe the early life cycle of Humankind with you all, folks, and even participate in the open dev. For a while I am going to go to the intensive care in hospital for God knows how long, no internet connection, I hope I can rejoin this subforum soon.

I've always enjoyed reading your insightful analyses here. I wish you a speedy recovery and hope to see you back with us here soon.

 

[CivLuvah]

So the new gameplay footage was a game mechanic video on religion. Just so you know. I'm waiting for the video to come up at the Humankind YouTube channel.

 

[Siptah]

Crusader Teutonic Knights

I'm cannot form an opinion of the shown mechanics as a whole based on the video, but what I do really like is that faith generation leads to conversion of territories with less faith generation. No need to exchange faith for units and run around the map to convert.

Holy sites are different from religious districts, so I wonder how you found the first.

Hooray for the "irreligion" civic where you can choose either state atheism or secularization, and get your civic points spent on previous religious civics back

 

[Narcisse]

No religious units is a blessing for me, I'm happy it is confirmed.
And having the gimmick on Teutonic Knights is cool btw

 

[CivLuvah]

My thoughts on the video. Well, actually a list of some concerns that may or may not manifest once we get to see a fuller picture of the mechanics.

1. The spread of religion to other territories based on faith generation is okay. We've seen it before. But it feels a bit too abstract, since religions IRL are spread by missionaries, traders, or by force. I hope they could provide something more concrete than just spreading your religion through the amount of faith in a territory, even if it's not in the form of a unit.

2. The titles of the tenets feel more like titles of virtues rather than doctrines (like in Civ6), but I assume that won't be final.

3. I hope we could choose between making our own religion or a historical religion like what the video said. Although we might have to wait for the latter one if the religion is pre-made, or even if this scheme is even possible. Correct me if I misheard.

4. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume that, just like the other civics, you can choose not to pursue an irreligious civic. Then again, this is just a minor gripe from me.

I know this is technically pre-alpha, I'm just airing my thoughts about it so far without actually giving a final judgment.