Humankind Game by Amplitude

[Shadowhal]

Thanks for all the clarifications, Cat.

We know that there was such a thing as Revolutions (or Revolts) if a city's stability dropped below 30, but at least my impression was that the consequences would be more typical city revolts in 4X: reduced output, maybe some neutral enemy units spawned. This sounds like something different, so I'm sure many of us will be keen to know how revolutions can happen (purely by player choice or also externally imposed) and what the consequences are (all/some civic points can be re-set; otherwise: cities lost? international relations reset? stability penalty?)


And, as usual, some questions on the topic at hand, this time religion:

1. Are tenets exclusive or can multiple empires pick the same ones?
2. So, the threshold for additional tenets driven by the number of followers, rather than the faith bucket? Of course, indirectly, it might still be faith, given that it is used to spread the religion and convert more territories.
3. The tenets for a given religion can never be changed, once selected, right?

Overall, I like it. It links tightly to several other gameplay systems and could create some rather complex decisions. In particular, I start seeing the two conditions for adopting new civics - unlocking the actual conditions and having enough points through stability. So, I'd suspect/hope that it is often not just which choices within a civic, but which area to invest points in to begin with.

Is there a potential for overlap and gameplay duplication? Maybe a bit, might be too early to tell. But it seems to have enough differences.

 

[CivLuvah]

Imgur album updated to include the Venetians:

https://imgur.com/a/4cPjGSY

 

[Elhoim]

We know that there was such a thing as Revolutions (or Revolts) if a city's stability dropped below 30, but at least my impression was that the consequences would be more typical city revolts in 4X: reduced output, maybe some neutral enemy units spawned. This sounds like something different, so I'm sure many of us will be keen to know how revolutions can happen (purely by player choice or also externally imposed) and what the consequences are (all/some civic points can be re-set; otherwise: cities lost? international relations reset? stability penalty?)

A bit was covered here:

https://www.games2gether.com/amplit...ankind-feature-focus-07-civics-and-ideologies

"For example, if the culture of your neighbors influences your people, they may ask you to adopt change your Civics to more closely match your neighbors."

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

And, as usual, some questions on the topic at hand, this time religion:

1. Are tenets exclusive or can multiple empires pick the same ones?
2. So, the threshold for additional tenets driven by the number of followers, rather than the faith bucket? Of course, indirectly, it might still be faith, given that it is used to spread the religion and convert more territories.
3. The tenets for a given religion can never be changed, once selected, right?

1. Yes, they are exclusive, though I don't know if that's final.
2. Yes, gaining tenets is driven by the number of followers, rather than directly by faith output.
3. As far as I know they cannot be changed.

Don't worry, when we release the video on our own channels we will also post a blog about it that may give you more details.

 

[Elhoim]

@Catoninetales_Amplitude You pick the tenets for the religion of your civilization? Or can it be done for one you "took over" from another player?

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

@Catoninetales_Amplitude You pick the tenets for the religion of your civilization? Or can it be done for one you "took over" from another player?

You pick Tenets for your state religion.... provided you are the religious leader, of course.

 

[GenyaArikado]

My Daenerys culture list so far is going

Babylonians > Huns > Byzantines > Mughals

Might replace the Babylonians with Mycenians tho. The best choice probably would be the Minoans to represent the Valyrians but they aren't here

 

[Shadowhal]

1. Yes, they are exclusive, though I don't know if that's final.
2. Yes, gaining tenets is driven by the number of followers, rather than directly by faith output.
3. As far as I know they cannot be changed.

Don't worry, when we release the video on our own channels we will also post a blog about it that may give you more details.

Thanks for getting back to me.

So in that way (1) the system is similar to Civ 5 and 6. Not sure whether I like or not. It's good to give a bonus to players who make an effort and it will differentiate it from some other mechanics. On the other hand, it doesn't make huge thematic sense, depending on how tenets work/what they are.

I also wonder whether there will be a hard cap on the number of fledged-out religions or soft pushes to nudge players into forming blocks ... or whether "No of religions = No of players" could be quite common. Block building would certainly add to diplomatic dynamics, but the more organic, the better generally.

 

[Elhoim]

So in that way (1) the system is similar to Civ 5 and 6. Not sure whether I like or not. It's good to give a bonus to players who make an effort and it will differentiate it from some other mechanics. On the other hand, it doesn't make huge thematic sense, depending on how tenets work/what they are.

Yeah, it is a bit silly thematically that if a religion believes something, some other can't believe it.

"Alright guys, Christianity declared that you shall not desire your neighbors wife... So I guess it's orgy season for us!"

Joking aside, it does avoid some of the pitfalls Civ had in my view. First, the tenets seem pretty simple in general, so balance wouldn't be much of an issue. Second, you can take over a religion if the tenets it has fit your civilization better, and even select the new ones.

I also wonder whether there will be a hard cap on the number of fledged-out religions or soft pushes to nudge players into forming blocks ... or whether "No of religions = No of players" could be quite common. Block building would certainly add to diplomatic dynamics, but the more organic, the better generally.

IIRC, @Catoninetales_Amplitude said that each civilization can found its own religion, but having a different religion would add diplomatic penalties. So converting to another's civs religion, or converting them, seems to be a better path, generating religion blocks. A faith-strong civ will definitely convert its neighbors from what I could gather from the videos.

 

[Shadowhal]

IIRC, @Catoninetales_Amplitude said that each civilization can found its own religion, but having a different religion would add diplomatic penalties. So converting to another's civs religion, or converting them, seems to be a better path, generating religion blocks. A faith-strong civ will definitely convert its neighbors from what I could gather from the videos.

It certainly seems that way from the feature focus:

Religions in Humankind start out small, with each civilization following their own religion, but will often consolidate into larger and more powerful blocs.

Suggests each player starts out with their own religion and that this may stay such for large periods of a game.

Once your population grows enough, you are given the opportunity to lay the foundations of your first religion, either Shamanism or Polytheism, which will also grant you access to your first Holy Site.

Interesting that it talks about first religion. Does it mean a given player can found more than one? Does it differentiate between naturally founded religions and adopting a historic one? Or does it merely refer to the starting one that any player founds naturally, to differentiate from others she may adopt over the course of a game.

You may also be able to adopt a historic religion that will grant you access to an additional Holy Site.

So what does it actually mean to adopt a historic religion, as opposed to a free-form one? Does it come with pre-packed tenets? Or other pre-defined features? Any stances towards other religions or game play effects (other than one extra holy site)?

 

[CivLuvah]

Interesting that it talks about first religion. Does it mean a given player can found more than one? Does it differentiate between naturally founded religions and adopting a historic one? Or does it merely refer to the starting one that any player founds naturally, to differentiate from others she may adopt over the course of a game.

I think the "first" refers to the level of the religion you have, then when you gain enough faith (I assume), you get to move to the next tier/level, which are the historical religions. I could be wrong at this though.

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

Suggests each player starts out with their own religion and that this may stay such for large periods of a game.

When and even if different religions form into blocks is honestly really dependent on the civilizations involved. For example, if you don't care about investing in religion at all, you may decide to adopt a neighbor's religion very early to benefit from their tenets. On the other hand, maybe all civilizations involved don't want to lose control or the tenets they have adopted, so they try to maintain their religion for the entire game.

Interesting that it talks about first religion. Does it mean a given player can found more than one? Does it differentiate between naturally founded religions and adopting a historic one? Or does it merely refer to the starting one that any player founds naturally, to differentiate from others she may adopt over the course of a game.

"First" in this case only refers to this being the first time you encounter the religion system. You might decide this is your only religions for the game, but you might also adopt another civilization's religion. And thematically adopting Judaism or Islam of course is quite different than the Polytheism or Shamanism you begin with.

So what does it actually mean to adopt a historic religion, as opposed to a free-form one? Does it come with pre-packed tenets? Or other pre-defined features? Any stances towards other religions or game play effects (other than one extra holy site)?

It's mostly about access to an additional Holy Site. I think there may be narrative events attached to the different religions, but I would have to dig through the entire list of events to be sure.

I think the "first" refers to the level of the religion you have, then when you gain enough faith (I assume), you get to move to the next tier/level, which are the historical religions. I could be wrong at this though.

New tenets are unlocked by the number of followers, not your faith output. This is one reason why adopting another religion may be beneficial: With more civilizations following this religion the number of followers will grow more quickly, and thus you unlock more tenets sooner.

 

[mitsho]

The idea # of religions for a game of ten players is 3-5. Two just results in a duopoly, whereas five just means that every religion has two follower players. That calculation of course excludes "hermit religion", i.e. described above by Cat as "maintain their religion for the entire game". They are excluded from the block game since they chose not to play. That should be an option.

In any case, the spread of religion should be a constant ebb and flow. It should be easy to convert your own human-player cities (spend some gold?) when they are converted. That's just an "annoyance protector for the human player" and can vanish on the higher difficulty levels. But otherwise: The % of followers should go up and down: the adoption of new tenets should be felt, but there can also be prophets, events, civics, schisms, etc. . With no religious units and no victory directly tied to it, it should not devolve into the wars of attrition we know from civ6. It was just too much of a hassle to move my missionaries to the next continent. If I can give the task, spend some gold and see it completed 15 turns later, that'd be great!

To make religion feel historical, it ideally should also tie into Minor Nations. What about a religion founded by such a culture. The Hebrews or Tibet ("founded" in this case) are prime candidates. And if you spawn near them you may change your strategy and not have to put much input yourself into founding a religion. Or any Minor Nation can found one if the Human and AI-players are too slow themselves. They can also switch by random to another religion and thus freshen up the spread map. In any case, I advocate for the tying together of the two systems (Minor Nations and Religions) and that would be my question to Cat for now

 

[FinalDoomsday]

Hopefully the system represents religions that don't proselytise much. multi faith areas would be interesting too.

 

[Atlas627]

Seems reasonable that religions would define themselves by what is different/emphasized about their beliefs, rather than what is the same. Just because Religion A has Patriarchy as one of its tenets doesn't mean that Religion B doesn't have a Patriarchy, it just means that that isn't the crucial thing that makes it special. They don't lean into it as hard, or it doesn't have as much influence.

And from a gameplay perspective, having tenets be exclusive creates some competition even between non-neighboring religions, and also helps prevent a meta of "pick Tenet A because it helps you get more Tenets, then Tenet B to generate more faith..." because you have to worry about whether Tenet B will still be available if you wait.

 

[j51]

Is there a list of what religions have been seen in game? Or just what features in general (units, religions, buildings, etc)?

 

[CivLuvah]

Imgur album updated to include the Ottomans:

https://imgur.com/a/4cPjGSY

 

[CivLuvah]

Also it's been a bit slow for Humankind news this week I've noticed.

 

[Narcisse]

Also it's been a bit slow for Humankind news this week I've noticed.

Some info from a french interview https://www.actugaming.net/humankind-interview-romain-de-waubert-amplitude-353642/ on 1st September :
Thanks to Safe for the quick google trad translation and resume

• the battle interface which takes up too much space so we are going to rework that to minimize the space.
• we are also reworking the city interface
• There were interesting discussions about the population and how it is growing. We are going to make small changes to that
• For units, there are still improvements to be made such as siege engines.
• More Open Dev sessions are planned on the same version as before (so without the requested fixes) to give other players the chance to take a look at the game.
• Some VIPs play more advanced versions of the game with religion and culture change, that's one of the things we want to dig into later.
• Civilization is a colossus, we are in awe. Myself, I got into the video game "a bit much" because of Civilization. The luck that we have is that we are not in the direct inheritance of a game. We are passionate about this game like other 4Xs and we are free to tackle the same subject as we have. want to do it. We really see it as an opportunity.
• The moment I was scared the most was when you journalists got to play the game because it is easy to dream about a game that is not playable. To dream about a game you can play is something else, it's like being left naked with flaws. It's a delicate moment but we were very happy with the feedback and it continued with Open Dev. Suddenly, it gives us wings.
• we need different personalities for our AIs. We won't have a nuclear Gandhi, but it has brought some interesting consequences which must be taken into account for the enjoyment of the player.
• Faithfully replaying the history of a civilization, we have discussed it a lot, the idea is that this will never be our main mode of play, but we know that there are many players who will want to get closer as much as possible in history. We will probably try to do that after the official release but we will do everything to support this possibility.
• There were discussions on the consequences of transcendence and we made a few prototypes that we did not take into account but which were very interesting. I think we had prototypes with modern vikings. Then we thought it was strange to have Marines attacking with Viking helmets. It was fun but it made us go into fantasy and we strayed too far from the story.
• One of the first discussions we had when we started Humankind: "Is Humankind in the Endless Universe?" ". The conclusion is that Humankind is not in the Endless universe because we are in a much more realistic universe than Endless.

 

[CivLuvah]

More Open Dev sessions are planned on the same version as before (so without the requested fixes) to give other players the chance to take a look at the game.

@Catoninetales_Amplitude
Assuming there will be new OpenDev scenarios in the near future, will those of us who were in the previous ones automatically able to enter these once they're released?

we need different personalities for our AIs. We won't have a nuclear Gandhi, but it has brought some interesting consequences which must be taken into account for the enjoyment of the player.

This one's interesting. I assume on paper the AI would be more dynamic that what we're previously used to, which can be both good and bad.