Humankind - Indians discussion thread

[Narcisse]

https://twitter.com/humankindgame/status/1394684308435226631

 

[Siptah]

I like how some of the contemporary cultures have uniques that come with negative associations IRL, such as the Egyptian officers, Australian mining, or now the Indian peace keeping force (and Americans and Chinese as well, if you so will).

As to why modern India gets the Aesthete trait instead of agrarian, I can only shrug.

 

[Jkchart]

I like how some of the contemporary cultures have uniques that come with negative associations IRL, such as the Egyptian officers, Australian mining, or now the Indian peace keeping force.

As to why modern India gets the Aesthete trait instead of agrarian, I can only shrug.

Well, it is a multicultural country focused on Indian/Hindu nationalism and strengthening that identity (religion = aesthete so far in this game). There's also the massive Indian film industry (like Egypt) which produces more films than Hollywood each year. India is a good Aesthete choice IMO, but Agrarian is also excellent. Either works.

 

[mitsho]

What's the negative implication with peacekeepers? My first thought with the unit was rather what effect they can give with such a name. Very curious on that.

Aesthete seems fitting for the cultural impact India has had. Will we see a scientist or militarist? Maybe not - and that might be okay as well.

The culture card puts us in the 2000's again rather than the Seventies as last week - it's a little too dark for me, but alright.

 

[Solovey]

Aesthete

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Aesthete

Exactly... an Aesthete will sacrifice the good of the common folk to create greater art/cultural influence for the elite.

 

[Siptah]

What's the negative implication with peacekeepers? My first thought with the unit was rather what effect they can give with such a name. Very curious on that.

Aesthete seems fitting for the cultural impact India has had. Will we see a scientist or militarist? Maybe not - and that might be okay as well.

The culture card puts us in the 2000's again rather than the Seventies as last week - it's a little too dark for me, but alright.

See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Peace_Keeping_Force under controversies.

i guess a scientist is less useful in this era, except if they add some future techs for only them to research. Turkey could easily be militarist.

 

[Krajzen]

Aesthete

I knew this will appear here and I wanted to express my disapproval.

India in the year 2021 happens to be still a developing country, and that comes with various challenges such as pollution, poverty, access to sanitation etc. The reason it is in such shape is a result of various historical processes (The Great Divergence, colonialism, clash between free market and central planning in its 20th century politics) and it is not the fault of Indian people. In the Internet it is common to find contempt expressed towards developing countries and I find it arbitrary and distasteful.

By the way, developed countries tend to export pollution and garbage to developing ones, which is part of why they seem so pristine in comparison.

Besides, such is the nature of games like this, that they focus on the positive aspects of cultures from human history. Almost every culture so far could get an image or description like this, focusing on the crushing poverty of common folk, corruption, despair etc. You could post an image of racial segregation or homeless people or war crimes for US. But in games like this we want to celebrate positives and have fun.

The fact India has severe problems with pollution is a temporary issue that will go away with economic development. Meanwhile, its beauty, Bollywood, rich culture, architecture, diversity, religious festivals etc are going to be remembered long after problems of development will be forgotten.

 

[mitsho]

See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Peace_Keeping_Force under controversies.

i guess a scientist is less useful in this era, except if they add some future techs for only them to research. Turkey could easily be militarist.

Ah ok, I instinctively connected „Peacekeepers“ to the United Nations programme of which India is a large supplier of soldiers, and I think also „female ones“ like depicted on the picture. Of course, that‘s another side, have to better look what they are getting at truly here.

And second what @Krajzen just wrote.

 

[CivLuvah]

As to why modern India gets the Aesthete trait instead of agrarian, I can only shrug.

I thought that was obvious because it's India (Bollywood).

And yes, I third what @Krajzen wrote, couldn't write it better myself.

 

[CivLuvah]

Exactly... an Aesthete will sacrifice the good of the common folk to create greater art/cultural influence for the elite.

As if there isn't a two way influence between the elite and the masses... or as if the poor are not capable of appreciating or making art themselves. That's a very erroneous assumption to make, considering that many of India's peoples have rich artistic folk/mass traditions that get more attention via mass culture such as Bollywood.

This kind of thinking does more of a disservice to the masses and the poor than is intended.

 

[Yudhisthira]

See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Peace_Keeping_Force under controversies.

I pretty sure Peacekeeper here represent Indian army United Nations missions rather than Sri Lanka Civil War one. It was such a big failure for India that it is called as India's Vietnam experience.
Thousands died,assassination of Prime Minister, not something to celebrate. It would be like giving unique ability to US based on Vietnam War.
And blue uniform makes it more clear.

As to why modern India gets the Aesthete trait instead of agrarian, I can only shrug.

I know many people made predictions for agriculture India but I wasn't sure from start. Infact whenever I ponder over it I couldn't find any trait fitting for modern India only somewhat aesthete due to culture/cinema reasons.
Regarding Agriculture the fact is, India is very under performing. It has largest cultivated/arable land.
But yet It falls below world average in per hectare production.

There is no doubt Indo-Gangetic plains were very productive in history but centuries of mismanagement has greatly altered things. Moreover agriculture isn't that profitable for an average Indian farmer compare to someone in West or China. With overcrowding, the situation cannot be said sweet in Modern India agriculture story.

 

[Narcisse]

I know than Indians were expected Agrarian mostly because Green Revolution, I've read that multiple times. But I don't know if the "Green Revolution" is really what we can consider as a trait of the Indian culture. (whatever culture means btw, it's broad as civilizations ). The hermitage is already a good take and indirect reference to Gandhi, I guess it's part of the aesthete choice.

 

[Jkchart]

I knew this will appear here and I wanted to express my disapproval.

India in the year 2021 happens to be still a developing country, and that comes with various challenges such as pollution, poverty, access to sanitation etc. The reason it is in such shape is a result of various historical processes (The Great Divergence, colonialism, clash between free market and central planning in its 20th century politics) and it is not the fault of Indian people. In the Internet it is common to find contempt expressed towards developing countries and I find it arbitrary and distasteful.

By the way, developed countries tend to export pollution and garbage to developing ones, which is part of why they seem so pristine in comparison.

Besides, such is the nature of games like this, that they focus on the positive aspects of cultures from human history. Almost every culture so far could get an image or description like this, focusing on the crushing poverty of common folk, corruption, despair etc. You could post an image of racial segregation or homeless people or war crimes for US. But in games like this we want to celebrate positives and have fun.

The fact India has severe problems with pollution is a temporary issue that will go away with economic development. Meanwhile, its beauty, Bollywood, rich culture, architecture, diversity, religious festivals etc are going to be remembered long after problems of development will be forgotten.

Thank you for this rebuttal to the previous awful post. I wholeheartedly agree with this.

 

[grug]

I know than Indians were expected Agrarian mostly because Green Revolution, I've read that multiple times. But I don't know if the "Green Revolution" is really what we can consider as a trait of the Indian culture.

I was one of those people expecting Agrarian India because of its role in the Green Revolution/ Third Agricultural Revolution, but for me I sort of stopped expecting that once it seemed like they would be focusing more on the past few decades into the near future for the Contemporary Era rather than the Cold War and Decolonization. The Green Revolution isn't unique to India, although then again neither is the Economic Elephant LT they currently have listed on the wiki, referring to the "elephant curve" in economics, a swelling of economic growth at the lower percentiles of global economic wealth caused by India and China's rapid economic growth that outpaces that of the middle class in Western countries.

Spoiler :

The Green Revolution was big in India though, because people expected there to be a famine as its population boomed from the 50s onwards, but advances in agriculture applied in India more or less proved that population growth was sustainable. It is the same general process of modernizing agriculture shown with Brazil's agronomy lab EQ. As far as India though, the Green Revolution basically showed that if you raise standards of living, population growth stabilizes, and that famines and overpopulation are typically due to misallocation of available resources rather than inevitable Malthusian pressure or whatever. If the main way to gain fame from Agrarian cultures is population growth, then showing India's growing population I think would have made sense.

I can totally see how Aesthete makes sense though, and also how since the game is more forward looking in their culture designs rather than focused on the 1920s-80s like I expected population growth isn't as significant as India's rapidly developing economy and prominent culture.

On a separate note, I also hope the Ashram hermitage has some faith yields. The availability of the secularism civic shouldn't mean that religion vanishes from the game, as Egyptian Islamism or Indian Hindu nationalism demonstrate.

 

[Maximus_Prince]

I pretty sure Peacekeeper here represent Indian army United Nations missions rather than Sri Lanka Civil War one. It was such a big failure for India that it is called as India's Vietnam experience.
Thousands died,assassination of Prime Minister, not something to celebrate. It would be like giving unique ability to US based on Vietnam War.
And blue uniform makes it more clear.

I can’t say for sure what previous posters were saying about how exactly this is controversial but I will say in my opinion there have been situations where other nations have claimed to be peacekeepers but they weren’t UN affiliated and it wasn’t truly humanitarian. They where in fact “advisors” or peace enforcers.

Without more details on this unit it would make sense if it was purely defensive. Though considering tensions between Pakistan and India it make me turn my head a little.

If Canada or I don’t know Belgium appeared in an expansion/DLC or mod I think peacekeepers would make more sense for them.

 

[Siptah]

But why would UN peacekeepers be defensive in Humankind - aren‘t they deployed all around the world and rarely in their homelands? Wouldn‘t it make more sense that they are allowed to take skirmishes with any nation that is currently at war with anybody and get extra fame from these kills?

 

[Maximus_Prince]

But why would UN peacekeepers be defensive in Humankind - aren‘t they deployed all around the world and rarely in their homelands? Wouldn‘t it make more sense that they are allowed to take skirmishes with any nation that is currently at war with anybody and get extra fame from these kills?

Unless the the UN specifically the UN Security Council adopts as resolution like the Korean War which is highly unlikely considering the grid lock of the current UNSC that’s not what peacekeepers are for. It’s for humanitarian purposes.

Peacekeepers in Rwanda we’re not authorized to pursue military action for example. Military authorization of force comes from approval of the security council and member nations militaries. The UN has no military.

In the past when discussing how to make a more interactive UN in civilization since 4 it has been discussed that maybe a feature could be featured where the UN sends peacekeepers that are really nothing more than visual markers put in place to in force things such as a ceasefire.

Going against the will of the UN will have a negative impact diplomatically amongst other players. A Rouge state as you will.

 

[Yudhisthira]

It would be really interesting how Peacekeeper play out, thou it look likes a defensive unit right now.

It certainly get more interesting if there is going to be UN like body in the game.
I mean if in game UN intervene in a war, would Indians get automatic fame due to peacekeeper unit? & how much control UN will have over units.

my opinion there have been situations where other nations have claimed to be peacekeepers but they weren’t UN affiliated and it wasn’t truly humanitarian. They where in fact “advisors” or peace enforcers.

On that part, it should be noted that India has never participated in such conflicts. It has policy of 'no boots on foreign ground' except under UN flag (Here ofcourse I m ignoring Sri Lankan Civil war).
So whether it would be a purely defensive unit or some UN involvement be there, .

 

[KrikkitTwo]

It would be really interesting how Peacekeeper play out, thou it look likes a defensive unit right now.

It certainly get more interesting if there is going to be UN like body in the game.
I mean if in game UN intervene in a war, would Indians get automatic fame due to peacekeeper unit? & how much control UN will have over units.



On that part, it should be noted that India has never participated in such conflicts. It has policy of 'no boots on foreign ground' except under UN flag (Here ofcourse I m ignoring Sri Lankan Civil war).
So whether it would be a purely defensive unit or some UN involvement be there, .

It could be a way to fight a foreign war with less war desire penalties (it’s not a war it’s a “police action”, we should keep doing it unless you side with the war criminals we are invading)