Hunor és Magyar: Brothers or Fantasy?

Vrylakas

The Verbose Lord
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This thread flows from a discussion sparked in another thread, so for some recap:

Korossyl wrote:

Hungarians, the sister nation of the Huns...

Vrylakas responded:

Sorry, this is a myth and one that oddly enough pops up frequently in these forums. Here is a link to an old thread, and towards the end of the 3rd page this myth surfaces and is dealt with. The short of it: Huns and Hungarians have absolutely nothing to do with one another.

To which Korossyl responded:

Hm. Interesting discussion. True, the Hungarians are not descendants of the Huns, and the word "Hungarian" does not refer to the Huns at all. I am Hungarian, and ancient Hunnish/Hungarian history is kind of my are of expertise as well... I have access to many sources (listable, if you like) which have simply not surfaced outside of Hungary. So:
The Hungarians and Huns can be most accurately traced back to Crimea in the Black Sea, where they developed into their nomadic tribes and moved north-east past the Urals. From there, we lost track of the Hungarians, but they surface many times in Hun records and legends. The Huns did their bit in Europe, then split up, some returning to the Urals and the others settled down in Transylvania. THEY ARE STILL ALIVE TODAY, called the "Szekelys" and consider themselves Hungarian. The most obvious link to their Hunnish heritage is the referance to Csaba, Atilla's son, in their anthem. Anyway, the Hungarian people followed the Huns down 400 years later to find the "promised land" the returning Huns spoke of. They found the Carpathian Basin, Hungary, and after some brief feuds settled down, in cooperation with the Szekelys in 896 AD. In 1200 AD, a Hungarian priest decided to investigate how accurate the legends were by trying to find the Hungarians and Huns who had remained east of the Urals. He DID find them, and they warned him of a massive impending invasion force headed for Hungary. In 1250, the Tatars (Tartars, Mongols) swept through Hungary, destroying much of it. A subsequent mission to the Urals found no trace of the ancient Hungarians.
I can elaborate on any point here if necessary.


So begins the debate. I'll take first swipe, below.
 
I am Hungarian, and ancient Hunnish/Hungarian history is kind of my are of expertise as well...

Are you a historian?

I have access to many sources (listable, if you like) which have simply not surfaced outside of Hungary.

I am quite comfortable reading Hungarian, and with four (of five) years in a Hungarian university studying history and ethnography (néprajz) I won't have any trouble accessing your sources. I'll freely share my own of course.

The Hungarians and Huns can be most accurately traced back to Crimea in the Black Sea, where they developed into their nomadic tribes and moved north-east past the Urals.

The Huns did not develop in the Black Sea area; they enter history in the 3rd century B.C. as the Hsiong-nu who harassed the nascent Qin Dynasty of China, living just north of modern Beijing. It was to defend themselves against the Hsiong-nu that the great emperor Qinshihuangdi began building the first battlements that would evolve in later centuries to become the Great Wall.

While in the latter centuries B.C. the general Steppe lifestyle was developing, it is a great mistake to assume that it was one uniform culture, though it often looked that way to the settled "civilized" peoples who lived on its perimeters and suffered its ravages, like the Chinese or the Byzantines. The Huns were only one among a great variety of Turkic peoples, for instance, belonging to the eastern "Mongol" Steppe Turks with little relation to the later western Turks (like the Avars or Khazars). Also, as I so often like to point out, it is a mistake to impose backwards through history our modern notions of ethnicity; being a "Hun" meant belonging to a tribe or tribal confederation, and involved peoples speaking many different languages but owing loyalty to a common clan and goal. At its height the Hunnic empire in the mid-6th century A.D. stretched from the lower Volga to the Carpathian Basin but as with all Steppe empires these were in reality administered by conquered and allied tribes along the way. European, Chinese and Indian sources all describe the Hunnic armies as consisting of large numbers of non-Huns; in Europe they described various Iranians, Slavs, Germanics, etc. This was quite normal in Steppe armies.

In any event, part of the Huns split off and moved northwestward in the late 1st century A.D. towards the Aral Sea and Lake Balkhash after a civil war within the Hsiong-nu empire. It isn't exactly clear why this group moved westward and Chinese sources are mum, but move they did and in the late 4th century these Huns exploded into the western Steppe by attacking the Alans, the Ostrogoths and Visigoths. This is the time we begin to see Huns along the Black Sea shore, many centuries after their inception along the northern Chinese cultural periphery. The Huns followed the Alans, Ostrogoths, and Visigoths into the Danube Basin, and crossed it in A.D. 441 (under Attila's leadership) to begin "their bit in Europe", ravaging about until the withdrawal from Rome in A.D. 452 and Attila's death afterwards.

The Huns did their bit in Europe, then split up, some returning to the Urals and the others settled down in Transylvania.

There is a partial truth here, but not completely. The Huns after Attila's death did indeed split up with some accepting Byzantine hospitality and settling in what is today Bulgaria (Moesia) but the group that moved eastward did not maintain unity. Quite the opposite in fact; it split into two main groups, the Kutrigur Huns and the Uturgur Huns. The Kutrigur settled around the Sea of Azov, while the Uturgur established themselves at the mouth of the Don River. These groups fought each other incessantly, until both were destroyed by the Avars in the late 6th century. Note that neither were anywhere near the Urals. The survivors of the Avar onslaught were absorbed into the new Avar empire which was marching steadily westward, towards of course the Danube Basin where it would hold sway until being destroyed by Charlemagne in the late 8th century. History does not record anything more of the so-called "western Huns" (i.e., those who fled westward to the Aral Sea in the 1st century).

For much of this I used a couple basic sources, especially René Grousset's excellent 1970 book The Empire of the Steppes, a History of Central Asia. To a lesser extent: E.D. Phillips' The Royal Hordes: Nomad Peoples of the Steppes, with brief help from Lucien Musset's The Germanic Invasions, The Making of Europe 400-600 A.D. and John Fairbank and Merle Goldman's simple China, a New History. However, though I usually shy away from web sources I did find some helpful information here.

Now, the Hungarians:

The Hungarians and Huns can be most accurately traced back to Crimea in the Black Sea, where they developed into their nomadic tribes and moved north-east past the Urals. From there, we lost track of the Hungarians, but they surface many times in Hun records and legends.

"Hun records and legends"? Problem: The Huns were an illiterate people who left no records. Linguists today argue over the early splits in the Altaic languages largely because they - the Huns among them - left no written evidence of their languages. It is reported that the Chinese had some who could speak with the Huns but we don't know if they spoke Hunnic, or another third neutral language, or Chinese. For instance, the Hunnic names of their leaders that we have all come down to us through other sources, meaning they have been bled through the transliterations of other Turks, of Chinese, Arabs, Slavs, Byzantines and Europeans. We do not know how Attila may have actually pronounced his name, or if we have his name correct. The website I sited mentions an early Turkic "Orkhon" script but no samples written in Hunnic survive today. Simply said, there are no "Hun records", unless you're thinking World War I-era German music. ;)

Your one saving grace in finding any Hun-Hungarian connection may be with the Onogurs, the Bulgaro-Turkic khanate that ruled in the Kuban region briefly in the 7th century. There is one theory (though quite controversial) that the Onogur Bulgars were descendants of the Huns, though this is unsubstantiated and the origins of the Bulgars has been more credibly linked to the Pamirs (look to the modern Chuvash). Even if there is some truth to the Onogur Bulgars having either descended from or absorbed the remaining Huns, the physical evidence (i.e. burials) shows a clear distinctive western Turkic style unknown to the Huns of Attila's day.

But back to the Hungarians:

Between A.D. 700 and 750, the Magyars moved southwestwards from "Magna Hungaria" (modern Bashkiria in the Urals) towards Levedia (c. 800) in the northern Caucasus, around the mouth of the Don River, which was peopled mostly by the remnants of the Iranian Alans and ruled by the Turkic Khazar empire. After the Khazar civil war of the 820s, the Magyars edged westward towards the Dniepr River along the Black Sea coast, known to them as "Etelköz" (Between the Rivers) where they were established by c. 850. They had already been doing mercenary work for various Christian Europeans since the 830s and knew the Danube Basin fairly well. When in the midst of a war with the Bulgars (situated in modern Bulgaria) the Magyar homeland was attacked by the dreaded Besenyök (Pechenegs) in 895, the Magyars straggled rather unheroically and desperately into the Carpathian Basin - contrary to heavily romanticized versions of mighty Magyar armies roaring through the Verecke Pass in the Honfoglaló. Though the year 896 is traditionally celebrated as the year the Magyars seized their current homeland, most historians (Hungarian included) agree that it took the Magyars a good century, to almost A.D. 1000, to fully control the traditional Hungarian lands from Transylvania to the Rába.

Anyway, the Hungarian people followed the Huns down 400 years later to find the "promised land" the returning Huns spoke of. They found the Carpathian Basin, Hungary, and after some brief feuds settled down, in cooperation with the Szekelys in 896 AD.

Well, the Magyars did not follow the Huns as there were no Huns to follow by the late 9th century. Remember that while the Huns are a gigantic people in Western History, there were just another Steppe empire for the peoples of Central Asia. Their reach and destructiveness made them legendary in Europe, but they were shooting stars for the peoples of the Black Sea, the Caucasus, the Caspian, etc. By the time the Magyars showed up on the Black Sea, the Huns were ancient history. The grasslands of the Carpathian Basin were known to many of the Steppe peoples (Gepids, Goths, Dacians, Bulgars, Avars, etc. etc. etc.) and was a known route into Europe.

The Huns did their bit in Europe, then split up, some returning to the Urals and the others settled down in Transylvania. THEY ARE STILL ALIVE TODAY, called the "Szekelys" and consider themselves Hungarian. The most obvious link to their Hunnish heritage is the referance to Csaba, Atilla's son, in their anthem.

This is a highly controversial theory, that the Székely were descended from the Huns who fled southward, and by no means accepted widely by modern Hungarian historians. There are many other theories as well, ranging from the Székely being fellow Ugric travellers to being simply Hungarians displaced by medieval land redistribution and re-settled in the frontier regions as border guards (i.e., "szék-ely"), in typical medieval fashion. A critical clue to their originds is the fact that while Székely Hungarian is a dialect, it nonetheless bares according to Hungarian linguists traits of having developed steadily along with pre-"Conquest" as well as medieval Hungarian. In other words, Székely Hungarian has a historical relationship with mainstream Hungarian much earlier than A.D. 896.

In 1200 AD, a Hungarian priest decided to investigate how accurate the legends were by trying to find the Hungarians and Huns who had remained east of the Urals. He DID find them, and they warned him of a massive impending invasion force headed for Hungary.

Julián (Iulianus), who twice ventured to find the ancient Hungarians of "Magna Hungaria" did indeed find them in 1236 (interesting article here that begins with Julián's journeys) but I'm afraid there were no Huns there. He reports that the bashkir Magyars live among the Volga Bulgars, but no Huns. Indeed, modern historians assume these Bashkir Magyars, such as survived the Mongol onslaught, were eventually assimilated into the Volga Bulgar ranks, for they disappear from history after Julián's missions. There are other groups of break-away Hungarians as well that we know almost nothing about, like the "Sabir Hungarians" who lived among the Sabir/Savir Turks of the Caucasus and are mentioned in an Arab source once. It is of course dangerous to be labelling peoples too precisely since there was no absolute atlas of who was who and where they lived in these times; for instance the Byzantines ahd a habit of labelling any horse-people who came out of the east with whom they didn't have immediate relations Turkoi (Turks), and indeed early Byzantine sources refer to Hungarians (among others) as "Turks".

In 1250, the Tatars (Tartars, Mongols) swept through Hungary, destroying much of it. A subsequent mission to the Urals found no trace of the ancient Hungarians.

Yes, the Mongols swept through the Hungarian kingdom in 1241-42 with such destructive force that nearly 50% of the Plains population of the kingdom was killed off.

Sources:

For this I relied heavily on one of my favorites from my student days, Fodor István's Verecke híres útján, a wonderful summation of Hungarian prehistory and all the known archaeological evidence stretching from the ancient Ugric peoples to the "Honfoglaló" Magyars. I also trotted out however Volume One of the MTA's Magyarország Története, Elôzmények és Magyar Történet 1242-ig. I relied a bit on Gyula László's Ö'störténetünk for some back-up and for Székely I reached for the MTA's English-language version of History of Transylvania.

Other recommeded reading would be the popular Corvina Press English-language book Attila, the Man and his Image (published in Hungary) which traces the popular image of Attila in the centuries after his death, and has some illuminating sections on Kézai Simon's appropriation of the ancient Scythian/Sarmatian/northern Iranian myth of the White Stag or the Magical Stag to fabricate a Hunnic-Hungarian connection in his 13th century chronicle. Fodor István also describes this dismissively.

In summation: The Huns were long gone by the time the Magyars made their appearance on the Black Sea scene in the 8th century, and while the two peoples followed vaguely a similar lifestyle on the Steppes tat so many other Turkic, Ugric, Iranian and etc, peoples also followed, the connection between them is ultimately null.
 
Originally posted by Vrylakas
Are you a historian?

I'm working on my History major, possibly going further. I'm pursuing my Hungarian studies on the side.

The Huns did not develop in the Black Sea area; they enter history in the 3rd century B.C. as the Hsiong-nu who harassed the nascent Qin Dynasty of China, living just north of modern Beijing.

No, they didn't originate there. I am relucant to mention the White Stag (which led them into Crimea), as it is so heatedly debated, but I am sure that the Huns and Hungarians had Mesopotamian roots, as evidenced by the similarities in the languages, both in the alphabet used (the Rovás writing. I can scan in the alphabet in case you're interested.) and the vocabulary shared between the Hungarians and Sumerians (as discovered by Sir Leonard Wooley). At any rate, the Huns did become a power in Asia third century, but only later entered Europe, which is the topic at hand.

While in the latter centuries B.C. the general Steppe lifestyle was developing, it is a great mistake to assume that it was one uniform culture, though it often looked that way to the settled "civilized" peoples who lived on its perimeters and suffered its ravages, like the Chinese or the Byzantines. The Huns were only one among a great variety of Turkic peoples, for instance, belonging to the eastern "Mongol" Steppe Turks with little relation to the later western Turks (like the Avars or Khazars).

True. Our earliest oral records and legends involve the Avars and Khazars, also inhabitants of the lower Steppe area. The first Hungarians lived alongside a people ruled by a Khan, and 5 of the original 7 tribes' names are Turkic in origin (one of the other two, incidentally, being the "Megyers").

Also, as I so often like to point out, it is a mistake to impose backwards through history our modern notions of ethnicity; being a "Hun" meant belonging to a tribe or tribal confederation, and involved peoples speaking many different languages but owing loyalty to a common clan and goal... European, Chinese and Indian sources all describe the Hunnic armies as consisting of large numbers of non-Huns; in Europe they described various Iranians, Slavs, Germanics, etc. This was quite normal in Steppe armies.

True. These were either fighting captives, mercenary tribes, or other peoples assimilated along the way, like you said.

In any event, part of the Huns split off and moved northwestward in the late 1st century A.D... these Huns exploded into the western Steppe by attacking the Alans, the Ostrogoths and Visigoths. This is the time we begin to see Huns along the Black Sea shore, many centuries after their inception along the northern Chinese cultural periphery.

I am led to believe, based on Pekár Gyula's research in the 1920's, that the Huns and Hungarians, upon leaving Mesopotamia (White Stag or not) and wandered for a bit before settling in Crimea. During this time, they were a wandering tribe, not a real nation or the fearsome army that they became. They, according to almost all our sources, did go to China, and inspired the wall, then went back the way they came, "exploding into the Steppes."

There is a partial truth here, but not completely. The Huns after Attila's death did indeed split up with some accepting Byzantine hospitality and settling in what is today Bulgaria (Moesia) but the group that moved eastward did not maintain unity. Quite the opposite in fact; it split into two main groups, the Kutrigur Huns and the Uturgur Huns. The Kutrigur settled around the Sea of Azov, while the Uturgur established themselves at the mouth of the Don River. These groups fought each other incessantly, until both were destroyed by the Avars in the late 6th century. Note that neither were anywhere near the Urals. The survivors of the Avar onslaught were absorbed into the new Avar empire which was marching steadily westward, towards of course the Danube Basin where it would hold sway until being destroyed by Charlemagne in the late 8th century.

I have no knowledge of this, or any record. May I ask where you got this from?

History does not record anything more of the so-called "western Huns" (i.e., those who fled westward to the Aral Sea in the 1st century).

Hungarian history dictates that they settled down in Erdély, Transylvania. More on this later.

"Hun records and legends"? Problem: The Huns were an illiterate people who left no records. Linguists today argue over the early splits in the Altaic languages largely because they - the Huns among them - left no written evidence of their languages.

I was actually referring to the oral records and legends, as passed down through the -- yup, Székely people. Again, more on these later.

Simply said, there are no "Hun records", unless you're thinking World War I-era German music. ;)

Zeppelin, flieg
Hilf uns im Krieg
Flieg nach England
England wird angebrannt
Zeppelin, flieg!

=)

Your one saving grace in finding any Hun-Hungarian connection may be with the Onogurs, the Bulgaro-Turkic khanate that ruled in the Kuban region briefly in the 7th century. There is one theory (though quite controversial) that the Onogur Bulgars were descendants of the Huns, though this is unsubstantiated and the origins of the Bulgars has been more credibly linked to the Pamirs (look to the modern Chuvash).

I agree. I don't believe there is a connection.

(Hungarian historical information, up to establishment of nation)

Nice. Didn't know all the detalis of that. Can I have your source?

Well, the Magyars did not follow the Huns as there were no Huns to follow by the late 9th century.

Well, the legends say there were, the Huns returning to the Hungarians in the Urals and the Székelys remaining behind. According to legend.

This is a highly controversial theory, that the Székely were descended from the Huns who fled southward, and by no means accepted widely by modern Hungarian historians. There are many other theories as well, ranging from the Székely being fellow Ugric travellers to being simply Hungarians displaced by medieval land redistribution and re-settled in the frontier regions as border guards (i.e., "szék-ely"), in typical medieval fashion.

True, today this theory is being more and more rejected. But I have an innate suspicion of all modern historians, now that everyone is so politically charged. I try to check them aginst earlier sources whenever possible. Come to think of it, I try to check all sources against other sources from differant time periods. Point is, this was the accepted and "common sense" history for at least 700 years, first mentioned in the most complete an oldest text of ancient Hungarian history, the Képes Krónika of Anonymus*. Also, I hold it especially interesting that the Székely Himnusz refers to Csaba, Atilla's son, within the context of a Hun legend prophecying his return. In addition, the Hungarian anthem refers to Bendeguz, Atilla's father.
Note: Csaba, Bendeguz and even Atilla are still common Hungarian names today.
*Anonymus is actually a real person, a monk perhaps who did not want recognition. It is known from contemporary sources that he was a chronicler in the king's court. There are even a few statues of him in Hungary, a monk's hood covering his face! =)

A critical clue to their originds is the fact that while Székely Hungarian is a dialect, it nonetheless bares according to Hungarian linguists traits of having developed steadily along with pre-"Conquest" as well as medieval Hungarian. In other words, Székely Hungarian has a historical relationship with mainstream Hungarian much earlier than A.D. 896.

This would fit into my theory, would it not? The Huns and Hungarians were closely related pre-896, with just a 400 year partial separation.
Note: One of the common theories today is that while Hungary was preparing for the millenial celebration, building such things as the Vajdahunyad vár replica in Budapest, they figured out about when they could complete everything and then set the date of the Hónfoglalás to 1000 years before that. I, naturally, prefer to doubt this theory.

Julián (Iulianus), who twice ventured to find the ancient Hungarians of "Magna Hungaria" did indeed find them in 1236 (interesting article here that begins with Julián's journeys) but I'm afraid there were no Huns there. He reports that the bashkir Magyars live among the Volga Bulgars, but no Huns.

Well, you yourself mention the Onogurs, a Bulgar tribe... anyhow, this is all mostly speculation.

Indeed, modern historians assume these Bashkir Magyars, such as survived the Mongol onslaught, were eventually assimilated into the Volga Bulgar ranks, for they disappear from history after Julián's missions.

That's good. I always felt bad that they had all been slaughtered. Maybe not!

There are other groups of break-away Hungarians as well that we know almost nothing about, like the "Sabir Hungarians" who lived among the Sabir/Savir Turks of the Caucasus and are mentioned in an Arab source once. It is of course dangerous to be labelling peoples too precisely since there was no absolute atlas of who was who and where they lived in these times; for instance the Byzantines ahd a habit of labelling any horse-people who came out of the east with whom they didn't have immediate relations Turkoi (Turks), and indeed early Byzantine sources refer to Hungarians (among others) as "Turks".

True and true.

For this I relied heavily on one of my favorites from my student days, Fodor István's Verecke híres útján, a wonderful summation of Hungarian prehistory and all the known archaeological evidence stretching from the ancient Ugric peoples to the "Honfoglaló" Magyars. I also trotted out however Volume One of the MTA's Magyarország Története, Elôzmények és Magyar Történet 1242-ig. I relied a bit on Gyula László's Östörténetünk for some back-up and for Székely I reached for the MTA's English-language version of History of Transylvania.

Nice! I'll have to check these out. Do you know when these books were written? Sources from 1944-1991 are not completely reliable, as the Soviets launched a massive propaganda campaign to show how the Hungarians actually came from Russia and thus should be communists.

Kézai Simon's appropriation of the ancient Scythian/Sarmatian/northern Iranian myth of the White Stag or the Magical Stag to fabricate a Hunnic-Hungarian connection in his 13th century chronicle. Fodor István also describes this dismissively.

Legends are never completely accurate, but I believe that they usually stem form a true origin. "Where there's smoke, there's fire." This is also why I lend a certain amount of credence to the White Stag, Hunor and Magor tales, and the legends concerning the Hungarians following the Huns into the Carpathian Basin.

In summation: The Huns were long gone by the time the Magyars made their appearance on the Black Sea scene in the 8th century, and while the two peoples followed vaguely a similar lifestyle on the Steppes that so many other Turkic, Ugric, Iranian and etc, peoples also followed, the connection between them is ultimately null.

I find it incrediblly hard to believe that what both the Hungarians and Székelys knew for 1000 years could be completely wrong and null. This is a pervasive belief that every man, woman and child learns in school as common knowledge. But based on historical evidence, as well as archaelogical finds and records dating back to the 1200s, I believe that the Hungarians and Huns are related, if not even by blood, then by close cultural ties.

Sources:
"Our Hungarian Heritage," Wass Albert (a famous poet!).
"Az ezeréves Magyarország" (No author listed)
"A Magyar Történelem Nagyai," Benedek Elek (a famous historical biographer).
"Magyarok Története," also by Benedek Elek.
"The Hungarians," Dr. Paul Lendvai (I had the opportunity to meet Lendvai in person!).
And finally, the Uj Magyar Lexicon, published 1960 Akadémiai Kiadó.

Thanks for this great debate, it's awesome to talk to someone who actually knows about this (I'm 17, and live just outside Washington, DC).
I await your reply!
 
By the way, I'm really new here, and I just read all your miscellaneous posts. Amazing work on Hungary!
 
Originally posted by korossyl
I find it incrediblly hard to believe that what both the Hungarians and Székelys knew for 1000 years could be completely wrong and null. This is a pervasive belief that every man, woman and child learns in school as common knowledge. But based on historical evidence, as well as archaelogical finds and records dating back to the 1200s, I believe that the Hungarians and Huns are related, if not even by blood, then by close cultural ties.

Sources:
"Our Hungarian Heritage," Wass Albert (a famous poet!).
"Az ezeréves Magyarország" (No author listed)
"A Magyar Történelem Nagyai," Benedek Elek (a famous historical biographer).
"Magyarok Története," also by Benedek Elek.
"The Hungarians," Dr. Paul Lendvai (I had the opportunity to meet Lendvai in person!).
And finally, the Uj Magyar Lexicon, published 1960 Akadémiai Kiadó.


Let me put some comments around here, though I don't consider myself an expert in ancient Hungarian history. :) So I'd rather argue from a sociological viewpoint.
The comparison with the Huns is really an old one, but that doesn't mean it is true. Indeed, it is very likely that in certain times this comparison was actually desirable for the ruling elite. Ultimately the Huns were feared around Europe and it is not difficult to imagine that both in the local folklore and in the high circles it was compelling argument, especially after Eastern Europe started to lag behind the West.
It was a time when the modern methods of linguistics and ethnography and also large scale information transfer did not exist. This "knowledge" was passed by generations and ordinary people did seldom engage into academic debates about their origins.
Hungarian history education tends to be not very accurate and in certain times it tends to be rather biased. I can easily imagine that this belief was so strong (and also supported) that nobody was able to successfully challenge it for a long time.
Also this belief is still lingering around because of the language differences, "Hungarian" comes from "Hun" in English and many of the other Western languages have similar similarities. Obviously there is no such similarity in Hungarian. :)

And welcome here! ;)
 
Fascinating thread gentlemen (I presume)! Just a few comments of my own (I've never studied such subjects formally, I am but a simple physicist): I always new the legend as Hunor and Magor, I presume this is one of the same thing.

The Magyar-Sumerian theory is another highly controversial one the jury's very much still out on, many linguists are dismissive of the connections and put them down to coincidence and whatnot. Some of the non-linguistic similarities are rather intriguing though, particularly the one regarding base-6 number systems used by both ancient magyars and Sumerians. Tread carefully with this theory.

And as an Australian-Hungarian I'd be remiss if I didn't recommend Bodolai Zoltán's works, although these tend to deal more with modern history than ancient.

I eagerly await Vrylakas' reply(s)!
 
Originally posted by klazlo


The comparison with the Huns is really an old one, but that doesn't mean it is true. Indeed, it is very likely that in certain times this comparison was actually desirable for the ruling elite. Ultimately the Huns were feared around Europe and it is not difficult to imagine that both in the local folklore and in the high circles it was compelling argument, especially after Eastern Europe started to lag behind the West.
It was a time when the modern methods of linguistics and ethnography and also large scale information transfer did not exist. This "knowledge" was passed by generations and ordinary people did seldom engage into academic debates about their origins.
Hungarian history education tends to be not very accurate and in certain times it tends to be rather biased. I can easily imagine that this belief was so strong (and also supported) that nobody was able to successfully challenge it for a long time.
Also this belief is still lingering around because of the language differences, "Hungarian" comes from "Hun" in English and many of the other Western languages have similar similarities. Obviously there is no such similarity in Hungarian. :)

And welcome here! ;)

Hey! We have the same first name! I am Laszlo Korossy.
Anyway...
The Hun/Hungarian connection was first made in the 13th century, 1270. At this point, there was no real technological or social advancement differance between Eastern and Western Europe (if anything, Rome/Italy were the most on top). The timing indicates both that the elite would have nothing to gain by perpetuation of a myth, but also, if you remember, Hungary was forced to join Christendom because they were so barbaric and were about to get beaten up by every other nation around them; essentialy, for "protectected status" as a Christian nation. A Hun/Hungarian myth would be the last thing someone would want to invent. Rather, this being so early, I can easily imagine the writers of the time, particularly Anonymus, had access to sources, records, or oral histories which have since disappeared.
I'll agree sometimes Hungarians can be a little biased towards our country (hehe), but many early foreign sources also agree with this claim. There was never any real doubt about it until the Soviet re-education campaigns, lasting fifty years, wherein it was profitable to disclaim this connection, both because the Soviets wanted Transylvania to remain in the hands of Romania (the Transylvanians being Huns), and because they were trying to say that the first Hungarians came out of Russia, and thoughts of a Hun/Magyar connection instantly conjured up thoughts of the White Stag and thus Sumerian origins. This Soviet propaganda has unfortunately been very successful.
"Hungarian" has no clear origin; it did not come form Hun, as many people tend to believe, but was most probably a derivation of the "Ugur" peoples (mentioned in an earlier post). The other most common theory is from the term "Hung-var-i," literally, someone from the fort of Hung (in the north of old, pre-1918 Hungary), the first place that the Hungarians really made a big impression on the Europeans. Personally, I prefer the latter. But there is no etymological link between the two words.
Lastly, thanks!
 
Originally posted by Vad Ember
Fascinating thread gentlemen (I presume)! Just a few comments of my own (I've never studied such subjects formally, I am but a simple physicist): I always knew the legend as Hunor and Magor, I presume this is one of the same thing.
The Magyar-Sumerian theory is another highly controversial one the jury's very much still out on, many linguists are dismissive of the connections and put them down to coincidence and whatnot. Some of the non-linguistic similarities are rather intriguing though, particularly the one regarding base-6 number systems used by both ancient magyars and Sumerians. Tread carefully with this theory.
And as an Australian-Hungarian I'd be remiss if I didn't recommend Bodolai Zoltán's works, although these tend to deal more with modern history than ancient.
I eagerly await Vrylakas' reply(s)!

Oh, what, you don't await mine? I'm hurt.
Anyways, there are definate linguistic links. Sir Leonard Wooley, whom I mentioned before, an ENGLISHMAN, said Hungary was a "direct derivation" of Sumerian culture. I had a book on the etymological links found between ancient Sumerian and modern Hungarian, which had list upon list of words, but I unfortunately cannot find it now. If it is safe to use the Bible here (I am a Christian, but in a purely historical document sort of way?) many of the city names of ancient Sumeria, Ur, Tabor, etc. are Hungarian words (Ur, the birthplace of Abraham, means "Lord!" Tabor means "camp.") In addition, a certain King ARPAD is mentioned twice! Even if the Bible's validity is debated, it is definately a Middle Eastern/Mediterranean document, and there should be absolutely no mention of an entirely unique Hungarian name if they had not had Sumerian roots.
Lastly, I am most definately a gentleman.
 
Lacikám nem akartam megsérteni tégedet, de a lengyel haverunk egy nagyon bölcs ember. Figyeljél rá!

And you should know better than to believe an Englishman!;)

Pls post in English. The rest of us would like to listen in too. Thanks - XIII
 
Originally posted by korossyl
By the way, I'm really new here, and I just read all your miscellaneous posts. Amazing work on Hungary!
Another victim... er contributer ensnared. Now, you're tied to us... :evil:

Welcome, korossyl! :) As for Vrylakas, I understand he studied history for a decade or so and has a few degrees fr various universities in Poland and Hungary, so... beware. ;) :D
 
Originally posted by Vad Ember
Lacikám nem akartam megsérteni tégedet, de a lengyel haverunk egy nagyon bölcs ember. Figyeljél rá!

And you should know better than to believe an Englishman!;)

Yeah, I know. I was just kidding. :)
Well, I certainly would rather have a Hungarian source saying this, but the common theory here is that Hugarians invented and pepetuated this myth. So I'm just saying... even Englishmen believe.
And yeah... I'm a little bit scared. Let's go!
 
I eagerly await Vrylakas' reply(s)!

I apologise to everyone but circumstances at home are conspiring to keep me away from my PC. Happy circumstances, I might add. :D

I will hopefully be able to reply in full on Wednesday evening.

Lacikám nem akartam megsérteni tégedet, de a lengyel haverunk egy nagyon bölcs ember. Figyeljél rá!

;)
 
Originally posted by Mîtiu Ioan
I bet you have a lot of "proves" for this ... especially for the 1947 moment ... :p

Are you being sarcastic or agreeing with me?
You mean when "we" "returned" Transylvania to Romania?
That was the unilateral action of one very corrupt and very evil commie, Kádár János.
 
"Lacikám nem akartam megsérteni tégedet, de a lengyel haverunk egy nagyon bölcs ember. Figyeljél rá!"

This is something to do with Keyzer Soze, right?.
 
Since Vrylakas is temporarily away, I jump in and add some more thoughts before he puts Hungarian history on the right track better than we Hungarians do... ;)

I did not mean that the Hun-Hungarian connection was invented in the last 300 years or so. What I'm saying is that regardless of the circumstances of its invention, there is a social inertia in these theories, which is hard to overcome, especially if it serves politics well.

And also, the point is not the actual linguistic connection between "Hun" and "Hungarian", (frankly, I don't have a clue of its origin) but the perception of this similarity by other nations. People in general are looking for easy explanations, and mixing the Huns with Hungarians was one of them.
 
Originally posted by klazlo
Since Vrylakas is temporarily away, I jump in and add some more thoughts before he puts Hungarian history on the right track better than we Hungarians do... ;)

Ach. I will not be defeated that easily.

I did not mean that the Hun-Hungarian connection was invented in the last 300 years or so. What I'm saying is that regardless of the circumstances of its invention, there is a social inertia in these theories, which is hard to overcome, especially if it serves politics well.

Well, I see it just the opposite. No one seriously doubted this connection until communism. Now, the majority of experts reject it. Communism brainwashed two whole generations, but even worse, spawned books, textbooks, "expert opinions" and biased archaeology which is accepted by all historians today.

And also, the point is not the actual linguistic connection between "Hun" and "Hungarian", (frankly, I don't have a clue of its origin) but the perception of this similarity by other nations. People in general are looking for easy explanations, and mixing the Huns with Hungarians was one of them.

True. But just because its an easy connection doesn't mean it's wrong!
:D
 
Sorry to keep the suspense up but I worked on this tonight and find it is almost 11.00 and I'm nowhere near done. Tomorrow evening, I promise. It may surprise you to learn that I am having trouble whittling things down in size - or maybe it won't surprise you...
 
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