Hunting Review

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Spoiler Notes for Introduction :

I have discussed most of the ideas here with other C2C modders to get to a point where most of the problems are identified and solutions found for them.

The other explorer unit types eg recon, and potential explorer types geologists and archaeologists are not discussed.

Aim:

to identify the problems with the current hunting system and come up with solutions.​

Problems in no particular order

• Hunting units are national special units in the same way as healers are city special units. The system is not set up to handle this well because AI cities do not know when to emphasize their buildings nor that they are needed in only one city. Or at most 2 cities.
  
  
• The information on improving the chance to subdue an animal is hidden from the AI.
  
  
• The_J's mod Barbarian Hunter, while providing a strategic choice to the player with promotions, is also hidden from the AI.
  
  
• (edit new) wild critters on lakes can't be killed or removed easily in game. You need a ranged unit with 100% to do so. Is it possible to have a special promotion, or something, so that Hunter units can do this without them being able to use that function elsewhere?

Comment

In vanilla Civ there is a distinction on how much a unit can learn to do its job by doing something that is not its job. Since most units in Civilization are about War and fighting other nations. This is mainly done by splitting the units encountered into three categories. A green unit can get better by doing almost anything even fighting animals. A unit with more experience will not get any experience from fighting animals but will improve their combat skills by fighting bandits and barbarians. Experienced units will only get better by fighting units comparable to themselves, in this case units from other nations. This is controlled in the Global Defines XML with two variables ANIMAL_MAX_XP_VALUE and BARBARIAN_MAX_XP_VALUE.

Spoiler Rant :

To me this is too important a mechanism to be removed from the game like it is with the Unlimited EXP game option. To me that option says that a tank crew should get better at its job by playing darts every Friday at the Pub!

I do see a problem with the loss of exp. If you play with Unlimited National units off it is easy for your trachers to get 100-200 exp only to be knocked down to 20 when they upgrade to hunters. Then your hunters get up to 300-400 exp only to go back to 20 when you upgrade them to wardens. Wardens come at the point in my games where animals start to become very rare so they don't recover enough exp to get any new promotions.

Bottom Line ie proposed changes

• Have 3 unit combat types one each for Hunters, Sea Hunters and Master Explorers. Move most of the basic combat detail to these and off of the promotions and units.
  
  
• Add a new line of Sea Hunting ships starting at Commercial Whaling.
  
  
• Allow early ships to become Sea Hunters via a promotion provided free by a building.
  
  
• Add special AI for hunters when choosing their promotions.
  
  
• Restrict the human-human combat options that the hunters can get.
  
  
• Fill out lines of hunting promotions covering
  • combat verses animals
  • chance to subdue animals
  • some special terrain promotions to account for the restriction of combat promotions
  • equipment promotions
  • other movement and sight promotions
  • animal specialist promotions
  
  
• Give the AI some "knowledge" so that it can better choose hunting buildings when they are needed. (This looks like it can be done with minor changes to the XML which will look to a human like duplication.)
  
  
• Reverse the EXP limits for hunters, ie they are limited in how much EXP they can get from fighting humans but get unlimited EXP from fighting animals.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

This is the biggest part of the changes

Unit Combat Classes

These combat classes are used when deciding what EXP to award a unit after combat. Units with them get unlimited EXP from animals but limited EXP with combat with non-animals.

Hunter

Only available to Hunter unit lines. Contains a huge malus to human-human combat. Where human includes barbarians, Neanderthals etc but not animals including subdued and tamed variants.

Effects:-

• -35% combat strength with a +35% combat verses animals
• Unlimited EXP from animals
• Maximum of BARBARIAN_MAX_XP_VALUE EXP from other combat

Master Explorer

Master Explorer applies to all explorer unit lines.

Great Hunters may become Master Hunters which get this and the normal Hunter combat class.

There is a hunting event that needs to change, it will add the Master Explorer combat class to a normal hunter unit allowing it to take the Master Hunter promotions.

Effects:-

• ignore terrain movement costs
• +100% EXP from combat

Sea Hunter

This Unit Combat Class is given to wooden ships by a building. It is not something you want on your combat, including transport, ships because of the huge malus they get in ship to ship combat.

At Commercial Whaling a dedicated line of Sea Hunter ships become available. At this point Wooden ships with this combat class can be upgraded to the Whaling Ship line and retain their hunting promotions or upgrade to "normal" ships and reclaim promotions lost.

Effects:-

• Same as Hunter

Unit Lines

Great Hunter

Only available from combat points. It is possible to get points from buildings but none do at the moment.

These can be

• upgraded to Master Hunters,
  
• used to construct buildings,
  
• join the city as ????
• start Golden Ages
• research tech????

Hunter Line

These can be built as normal units. They are a National Unit and are limited in number unless you have the Unlimited Units option selected. These are:-

• Chasers
• Trackers
• Hunters
• ?
• ?

Master Hunter Line

These units can only be made from Great Hunters. They mirror the Hunter Line but are slightly better.​

Whaler Line

These can be built as normal units. They are a National Unit. Wooden ships with hunting promotions can be upgraded to these. They are:-

• Whaler
• Factory Ship

​

Promotions

Hunters are not combat units so like other specialists they should not get access to any of the Combat promotions. Recon differ here as they are military units.

Combat promotion line

Hunters should not get any access to any of the Combat promotion line because they are not combat units.

The main problem with this is that there are some other promotions that are appropriate to Hunters that require Combat line promotions. These are mostly Terrain promotions.See post #5 for details.
​

Hunter promotion line

Currently these are set so the AI has a chance of considering them. If we have a special AI for the hunter line when choosing promotions these can change.

Change to Hunter I to Hunter V each with a +15% chance verses animals.

Promotion | Technology
Hunter I|Persistence Hunting
Hunter II|Tracking
Hunter III|Hunting
Hunter IV - VII|Hunting Tactics

Master Hunter promotion line

Master Hunters start with a chance to subdue animals.

Change to Master Hunter 1 to Master Hunter III each has +5% verses animals and +10% chance to subdue

Promotion | Technology
Master Hunter I|Tracking
Master Hunter II|Trapping
Master Hunter III|Hunting

Sea Hunter promotion line

Sea hunting promotions are the same as normal hunting promotions but become available at different techs.

Change to Sea Hunter I to Sea Hunter III with Hunter IV and Hunter V being available after that.

Promotion | Technology
Sea Hunter I-II|Raft Building
Sea Hunter III|Seafaring

Subdue Animal promotion line

(New) Subdue Animal I - V each providing 15% chance to subdue. Available at Trapping and requiring the previous Subdue Animal and (Sea) Hunter level.​

Specialist promotion lines

Mammoth Hunter I and II

Currently I is provided by building. This is not working as well as it might. Need to find a different way of implementing it.
​

Hunting Sight I and II

These are given free to various Hunter units and are not available for selection as promotions. They are used on the units to as part of the progression of more technologically advanced later units in the hunter line.​

Equipment promotions

• Nets (land and sea units) + 10% subdue verses small and medium animals

• Spear (land and sea units) +5% chance verses small and medium animals

• Harpoon (sea units only) +10% chance verses medium and large animals
  
  
• Binoculars +1 sight

Companion promotions

• Canine (land only)
  
• Hawk
• Dolphin (sea only)
• Shark (sea only)

Other

• Blitz ie attack until movement points used up. Requires Hunrer IV
  
  
• Speed ie increased movement +1
  
  
• Hunting Sight II each adds +1 view distance. These should not be available for selection. They are used on the units to improve later units in the hunter line.
  

Spoiler Existing terrain based promotions with some suggested changes :

These promotions are given to units when they are created based on the terrain surrounding the city and the unit domain.
They are only granted if the Civics Military Tradition and/or Voluntary Army are active.

Promotion|Terrain|Combat|Movement
Bushman|Barren, Rocky, Scrub, Salt Flats, Marsh|+10% attack and defense|No
Cliff Walker|Hills, Peak|+10% attack and defense|No
Green Warden|Jungle, Bamboo, Forrest (all 4)|Yes|No
Sand Devil|Desert, Dunes|Yes|No
Winter Born|Ice, Tundra, Taiga|Yes|No
Sailor|Reef, Coral Reef|Yes|No|New or replace existing

Spoiler Existing promotions for Hunters :

Promotion Line|Promotion|Combat|First Strikes|Subdue Animal|Requires
Event|Hunter Great|+50% v animals|+1 extra first strike
Hunter
|Hunter I|+25% v animals|+1 extra first strike chance|+5%
|Hunter II|+40% v animals|+1 extra first strike; -15% Strength|+20%|Hunter I
|Hunter III|+55% v animals|+1 extra first strike; -5% Strength|+20%|Hunter II and (Guerilla II or Woodsman II)
|Hunter IV|+30% v animals|Multiple Attacks;+1 extra first strike; -5% Strength|+20%|Hunter III and (Guerilla III or Woodsman III)
Hunting Sight
|Hunting Sight I|+1 visibility range||+5%|Hunter I
|Hunting Sight II|+1 visibility range||+10%|Hunting Sight I

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

New Sea Unit Line - Whalers

1. A new line of ships, Whalers, become available at Commercial Whaling.
   
   
2. Any naval unit with a Sea Hunter promotion may be upgraded to a Whaler line unit.
   
   
3. Sea Hunter promotions are lost if the unit upgrades to a non-Whaler line.
   
   
4. If you become a signatory to the UN Ban on Whaling you can't build more Whalers.
   
   This means we need a new type of UN resolution. One that only affects those that sign on to it. We need this for other things eg the next phase of the Captives project, Prisoners of War.

Spoiler Ideas for - New types of UN and pre-UN agreements between nations. :

New types of UN and pre-UN agreements between nations.

There are a number of these. They sort of act like Civics but are an on/off set of choices mostly. Examples are:-

• Prisoners of War (Ransom)
  
  • High level units can be sold back to the nation they belong to.
    
  • They retain their XP and promotions and return to the capital where they can't move for a number of turns.
• Prisoner of War (Camps)
  
  • captives are no longer treated as criminals. Can't be enslaved.
    
  • All units retain their XP and promotions. They may loose some XP over time.
    
  • They may try and escape. And so on.
• Ban on Mine Warfare
• Ban on Gas Warfare
• Ban on Biological Wafrare
• Ban on Whaling
• Rules of War - many levels doing so may cause those doing it to be charged with war crimes after the war is over
  • no combat on civilians. Possibly civilians basically become invisible to military units if in their own borders.
  • no combat on healers
  • healers treat all wounded no matter which side

Buildings

There are two streams of buildings in C2C that are hunting related, those dealing with hunters and those about hunting. These were developed at the same time by different modders with little integration.

Hunter Buildings

eg Hunting Instruction

Hunting Buildings

eg Hunter Camps

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

AI changes

Solution covers changes to building and promotion choice.

Since hunting is not generic like fighting units nor is it city based like crime fighters are the current AI is unable to cope. Before we tweak the core AI in the dll we can build a prototype of sorts in Python which can then be fiddled with until we get something that works. If we get another set of special units of a similar nature we will then be in a position to implement it and make a generic solution that can be put into the dll.

AI on the hunting mechanic also needs looking into. It also suffers from the fact that hunters are not combat units but the AI is mostly about combat.

When choosing promotions the current dll will choose almost any other promotion over the hunting ones since it sees "bang for buck" as combat related. There are Python code segments in C2C that over write the choice. They tend to be of the form "if the unit has a promotion in the line it should take the next in the line if it can". Note this is only for AI players. Human player choices are not overwritten in this way.

It may be possible to do better or at least keep flavour by considering the leader traits. For example for an expansionist leader hunter movement promotions might be preferred. While an aggressive leader may go for Combat I-III first.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

This was originally out of scope of this review but it needs to be discussed because of the other changes in the review.

I have not yet looked at the ship terrain promotions. There are those that are defined by Coast/Sea/Ocean as well as those that affect the terrain features sea grass, kelp and the various reefs and shoals.

Terrain Promotions

Many of the C2C terrain promotions are not suitable for Hunters, and maybe explorers, given they change the attack chances on units that don't attack. They also require promotions that Hunters can't get eg Combat I.

Currently

Promotion Line|Promotion|Terrain|Combat|Movement|Requires
Cold
|Arctic Combat I|Taiga|+20% attack; +50% defense|double in Taiga|Combat I
|Arctic Combat II|Tundra|+20% attack; +50% defense|double in Tundra|Arctic Combat I
|Arctic Combat III|Permafrost|+20% attack; +50% defense|double in Permafrost|Arctic Combat II
|Arctic Combat IV|Ice|+20% attack; +50% defense|double in Ice|Arctic Combat III
Warmth
|Desert Combat I|Desert|+20% attack; +50% defense|-|Combat I
|Desert Combat II|Dunes|+20% attack; +50% defense|double in Dunes|Desert Combat I
|Desert Combat III|Salt Flats|+20% attack; +50% defense|double in Salt Flats|Desert Combat II

Field
|Fieldsman I|Grassland and Plains|+15% Defense|Double Movement in Grassland|Combat II
|Fieldsman II|Grassland and Plains|+15% Attack|Double Movement in Plains|Fieldsman I
|Fieldsman III|Grassland and Plains|+20% Attack and Defense|-|Fieldsman II

Forestry
|Forestry|all types of forest*|-|Double Movement in all types of forest|Combat II
Guerilla
|Guerilla I|Hills and Peaks|25% Defense||None
|Guerilla II|Hills and Peaks|25% Defense||Guerilla I
|Guerilla III|Hills and Peaks|25% Defense||Guerilla II

Hillsman
|Hillsman|Hills and Peaks|-|Double Movement in Hills and Peaks|Combat II

Mountaineer
|Mountaineer|Peaks|-|Can move through peaks before Mountaineering tech|Combat III and Guerilla III

Wetland
|Wetland Combat I|Lush|+20% attack; +50% defense|Double movement in Lush|Combat I
|Wetland Combat I|Lush and Muddy|+20% attack; +50% defense|Double movement in Lush and Muddy|Wetland Combat I
|Wetland Combat I|Lush, Muddy and Marsh|+20% attack; +50% defense|Double movement in Lush, Muddy and Marsh|Wetland Combat II

Woodsman
|Woodsman I|all types of forest*|25% Defense +10% vs. Animals||None
|Woodsman II|all types of forest*|25% Defense +15% vs. Animals||Woodsman I
|Woodsman III|all types of forest*|25% Defense +20% vs. Animals||Woodsman II

*all types of forest = Savanna, Young Forest, Burnt Forest, Bamboo, Forest, Jungle and Ancient Forest

Discussion

As you can see the original terrain promotions Guerilla and Woodsman had a secondary promotion that gave the extra movement; Hillsman and Forestry respectively. Having the movement changes and an attack bonus in the other terrain promotions makes them much more powerful.

As I see it we have a two main options to restore the balance between the terrain promotion lines.

1. Remove the attack and movement components from the C2C terrain promotion lines; create new movement promotion lines and maybe new lines (or promotions) for the attack part.
   
   
2. Merge the current terrain movement promotions into the old terrain promotion lines and add in some attack value.

The other main difference is that the old promotions have no prerequisite requirement whereas the new all require Combat I. The proposal in this review is that Hunters can't get Combat I which will bar them from these very useful promotions. Note: same goes for terrain movement promotions which require Combat II or Combat III

Note: Changing the Woodsman promotions so that they cover the differing densities of forest may be a good idea.

Review Suggestions:

Preferred changes:

1. Terrain movement be removed from the Terrain Combat promotions and put in their own line(s) of promotions.
   
   
2. Terrain movement promotion level I require Combat II or Hunter II. (III for Mountaineering.)
   
   
3. Terrain Combat promotions only contain Defense bonus with another promotion branching off that contains the Attack bonus.
   
   eg Desert Combat I gives 25% defense and leads to both Desert Combat II and Desert Attack I, where Desert Attack I gives 15% attack.
   
   Desert Attack II would require both Desert Attack I and Desert Combat II.​

Alternate changes:

1. Create new promotion lines specifically for Hunters (and maybe all explorers).