I captured the Apostolic Palace, but opponent is still in control?

[MarkJohnson]

I finally captured the Apostolic Palace after Hatshepsut has been abusing it to stop my advances by giving the cities I captured from Sitting Bull back to him.

I had to give up one of Sitting Bull's cities that I captured to Hatshepsut in order to rush into Egypt and capture Memphis, which luckily was on the border, and take control of the Apostolic Palace. Now, a few turns later after capturing it, Hatshepsut made a vote to give Sitting Bull's city back to him for about the fifth time in a row.

When do I get control of the AP? I just noticed that Memphis is still in revolt. Is that why Hatshepsut is still running the AP?

I can look it up, as I've seen it mentioned a few times, but can't I disable the stupid AP? It is just too annoying - lol

Thanks for your responses.
-=Mark=-

 

[Silence101]

I don't believe that taking the AP will change the resident - correct me if I'm wrong, but all that will do is make you eligible for the next resident election assuming that you're running the correct state religion.

 

[Way_Traveler]

Physical control of the AP doesn't automatically give you political control-- whoever is elected to lead it leads it, remember? The city that houses it changing hands does nothing to alter that dynamic.

I don't even recommend building the AP yourself, because then you're stuck with it and might lose political control of it with no recourse. As soon as you figure out who owns it, make them a priority target and raze that city. If the city is in a prime spot, just get a settler over there to replace it. It's worth it.

[The one exception might be if the city has many high value wonders. But since you don't get culture from captured wonders, the obsolete ones are going to do you almost no good anyway... so still probably not]

You can remove the AP from the game by unchecking the diplomatic victory option. This will also take out the UN.

 

[hecubus]

Is it also the case that once the AP is built the associated religion is locked in? I captured it once but had a different State Religion than the original builder, and once I had control of the city nothing ever came up for it. No resolutions, no votes for control, nothing.

 

[Defiant47]

As has been said, raze it. It might mean giving up an excellent city, but have a settler ready anyways and burn it to the ground.

 

[say1988]

Is the only benefit for controlling the AP that you are eligible for the leadership vote?

 

[Silence101]

Is the only benefit for controlling the AP that you are eligible for the leadership vote?

This is where there's a major benefit to being the one who builds it - mainly because the palace is built for your state religion. This means +2 hammers per religious building of that state religion in every city... not too shabby. Of course, if another civ with the same state religion builds it, the main benefits are the same - except that you don't get the culture or the guaranteed resident vote. You can't always rely on a civ with the same state religion building it though.

So, despite what some say, I think there's a real advantage to being the one who builds it. Aside from the resident vote, simply controling it is really kind of pointless. I still think it's a great wonder to have if you can afford the production time to build it.

 

[Steiner-Davion]

Is the only benefit for controlling the AP that you are eligible for the leadership vote?

Pretty much yes! The builder (and maybe the owner in case it is catpured) is automatically eligible for Leadership. Usually the next most powerful Civ is also eligible. In this aspect it works the same way as the UN, provided thAt both the CIVs have the necesary religion present in their civ.

 

[Sian]

AP is pretty much a dual egded sword ... if you have a load of the religion it is for and noone else have more than a few cities then you could overrule everything singlehandedly, if others have a load of the religion as well its slightly more tricky onless you manage to soothe them with sweet emtry phases ... if everyone have a few cities and you have a crabload of them, and is highly friendly to some of the others) you can easily pull off a diplomatic win ...

it would have been interesting if you could build that Religion purger (inquisitor) in the game for nuking the religions in your cities you don't like (with Theocracy and prehaps paper as prereqs)

 

[CampRadio]

I don't think so but if you raze it then you cannot rebuild it

 

[MarkJohnson]

ok, I was reading through some of the other articles on the AP. I guess I should of razed it after all, but it was so big and full of wonders I just couldn't do it.

Now I have to face the consequences of defying the resolution to seek peace with Hatshepsut and get a -2 unhappiness in all my cities and now have a villain title by my own people - lol

I also didn't know I wa suppose to spread my relion to all my cities and now that I have I still only have 40 votes, while Hatshepsut has like 133 votes and I control more cities and more land.

What are votes based on so I can get more and stop this madness! - lol
-=Mark=-

 

[say1988]

I am not 100% certain, but adopting the AP religion as your state religion and spreading that religion to your cities should help. Also spread it to any cities of a friendly civ (that will vote to support you).

 

[niels251]

the larger your cities with that relgion the more votes you have

 

[Rvil Plum]

You can prevent the bad diplomatic side of the AP and yet keep all the good hammer benefits to just your civ, as follows:

1) Found an early religion, don't spread it to other civs and convert to it just as you build the AP.
2) If you can't found an early religion, then don't convert to any early enemy owned religions. Instead stay agnostic, build the AP, then go found a late religion and convert to it.

In both the above situations you will be the only civ with the AP religion so you get +2 hammers for all your buildings of that religion, but none of the diplomatic hassle, and no enemy civ has any hammer benefit.

N/B: It's very advisable to convert to an enemy religion once you have completed the above exercise, as it improves your relationship with them. Having the AP religion as your state religion when you are the only civ that has it, doesn't give you any diplomatic benefit, but it does create bad relations with other civs

If you end up creating a large empire mid to late game with lots of AP religious buildings in it, then you can safely start spreading the AP religion, as you will now have diplomatic control of the AP, BUT if you do decide to spread it, then you will give the enemy civs the benefit of extra hammers, and one extra happy person per city when they adopt "Free Religion" so do you really want to spread it?

The hammer benefit of AP religious buildings to a medium sized civ with 8 cities is as follows:
8 temples = 16 hammers
8 monasteries = 16 hammers
2 cathedrals = 4 hammers

Total = 36 hammers

That's a huge benefit if you are the only civ that has the AP, and if you can't control the AP yourself and prevent it's spread, then you should always prioritise religious buildings belonging to the AP religion.

AP religious buildings are also very useful in cities on ice / tundra that are just created to obtain a nearby resource. Such cities often have very little or no production hammers at all, so building AP religious buildings in them, is a good way to get them productive. You often have to expand the borders of ice / tundra coastal cities to get at a resource located 2 spaces out to sea, so rather than build monuments to do it, build an AP monastery instead. It will expand your border + give you 2 hammers.

Regards - Mr P

 

[Way_Traveler]

Rvil-- How much have you playtested that? In my experience, religions have a way of leaking out. While theocracy keeps 'bad' religions out, there's no way to keep the 'good' religion in. I'd hate to go through all the effort to get the 'unique' benefit, and then have my edge taken away by a a civ running organized religion.

I am not sure if the AI is smart enough to prioritize spreading the AP religion (to get the hammers), but I believe it is. Has anybody playtested that?

 

[MarkJohnson]

Thank you for elaborating on Silence101's hammer benefits Rvil Plum. It was very well alyed out for me to understand.

Good thing I decided to take a break, I had restarted back to last save when I was first forced to declare peace with sitting bull. I have advanced to the point of the next vote and I had the most and it was 2 to 1 and I won by 8 votes!!

I was just getting ready to run into Egypt and demolish the AP, but now I think I will keep it

on a side note. is possible for me to change the religion of the AP? Even after eliminating the original creator? That way I can switch religions and be freindly with the other civs on the other island before they attack me.

also, what is the ratio for building the cathedrals? is it 4 of either temple or monastaries to 1 cathedral? or 4 of each to 1 catherdral? or does it go up the more you build?

Thanks again everyone
-=Mark=-

 

[Rvil Plum]

1) You can prevent religious leak by not building the holy shrine with a Great Prophet. You lose the benefit of one gold per city, but you stop it spreading. As far as I know it's the Holy Shrine that cause independent leak.

2) Once the AP religion is chosen, (i.e. being whatever religion the civ has as their state religion when they build it), then you can't change it. The builder can change their religion at any time they like, but the AP religion stays the same.

3) Not sure about the Temple - Cathedral Ratio. My rule of thumb is 4:1, but I remember playing as the Chinese in the mod "Rhyse and Fall", and the ratio was different for different religions. Don't know if that was normal, or something strange to that MOD, but it made playing the Chinese a real challenge, as one of the victory conditions was a certain number of Cathedrals by a certain date. Brilliant MOD by the way.

Regards - Mr P

 

[Way_Traveler]

This post is somewhat incoherent, so forgive me:

Rvil-- The holy shrine helps the spread*, but is not the only cause of it. This can be empirically verified easily enough; fire up a test game, found an early religion, and connect it to all your other cities. On epic game speed, your religion will magically spread to at least one of those cities within 50 turns or so. Cities without any religion seem to pick them up faster later in the game**

To the extent that building the holy shrine is discouraged, you're giving up quite a boon. Depending on map size, 20 cities with your religion isn't an unrealistic midgame goal. 20 gold per turn for 100 turns, plus grocer/bank/market/wall street/golden age bonuses is well in excess of 5,000 gold. Just how much are those hammers worth again? [Of course, that's needs to be discounted; once you get to mass media, you might as well go ahead and build that shrine. I would need to crunch some numbers on this.].

You raise some interesting points, and I'm not trying to tear into you. In my current game, I've built the AP to see how it goes, and I'm going to manage it more carefully than I have in the past. Depending on the circumstances, though, the only thing worse than seeing the AI build the AP may be building it yourself.


*I am not sure if anybody knows exactly how, but the game says it does, and I've observed it empirically
**Frequently, when I'm doing my final post-state property expansion into recently 'abandoned' territory, my cities pick up either my religion or another religion before I can get my missionary there.

 

[Rvil Plum]

Even if your State Religion does leak/spread within your own civ, why would it indepently spread / leak to an enemy AI who don't have it?

If it does leak, then it would need a route via: Open Borders, roads, sailing, intercontinental trade, airports, etc. Given how many civs have closed borders, ban the spread of non state religion, or are located on an undiscovered continent, it makes the leaking of an AP religion that only you control, incredibly difficult, and the spread would be so slow you would have diplomatic control of the AP at all times.

Perhaps the AP religion will spread by itself, even if you don't build the Holy Shrine. Suggest you report back on what happens in your current game now that you have built the AP and are the only one with the AP religion.

All I can say is that I play on Emperor / Immortal at marathon speeds on normal continent sized maps, and using those conditions, I don't remember it spreading. I rarely have AI friends, and my diplomatic relations with the AI is usually cautious / hostile.

PS: Usually play as Elizabeth, so 20 gold per turn from a Holy Shrine is petty cash,

Regards - Mr P

 

[MarkJohnson]

Darn it! I forgot to save the game after posting, but it went very well for a while.

After I got control of the AP and cleared Sitting Bull from between me and Hatshepsut I went to declare war on him but when the screen to talk to him came up it said he didn't want to talk to me. I think he was pouting because I took control of the AP from him - lol. Oh, and he said he was pleased with me. The liar!! - hehe

It took me a minute or two to declare war. I tried to select a stack and have it auto march into his territory and it wouldn't go. then tried moving up next to him border and manually hitting the forward button on the keyboard and then the declare war menu came up.

After taking the only two cities on the main continent I need boats to cross over and about the time I was ready Zulu and his minon vassalage Gilgamesh declared war on me. I was just too far behind in techs to catch up and his invasion force is starting to get large.

I'll have to play with the AP a little more and use religion a little more to see if I can get the hang of it.

Thanks much yet again for everyone's help.
-=Mark=-