I don't understand the scoring.

[gozpel]

I played 2 similar games on standard maps to get an idea of how the milking works. In PTW 1.27.

Both games were on Monarch and I conquered the other civs until I reached the domination limit. I then wiped out everyone but one civ in one game and 3 civs in the other. I left them all in towns on islands where they couldn't get anywhere.

In the first game I spent lots of time maximizing my pop and everyone was happy. In the second game I never let cities grow beyond 12 pop and everyone was happy.

I reached domination limit approxiamtely at the same time in both game, different maps though and different opponents. I hit a score/turn around 38-39 and was quite happy with this. Then the score started to drop...and drop...and drop even more.

The same thing happened in both games and at the end I only got something like 11-12 points towards the score each turn.

I stayed in Republic all the way in both games, had all luxes and everyone was happy as I said. So what's going on here?

What could I do to keep the score up? Both games ended with a score just under 10k, which seems pretty lousy after all that work

 

[Darkness]

You can't do anything about it Gozpel. The score drop-off is natural, once your cities have maxed out on population....
I think SirPleb and Aeson can probably explain better than this, but I do know that you can't prevent your score increase-per-turn from dropping of while milking.

 

[gozpel]

I knew, Darkness, about the dropping in scores, but didn't realize the severity of it until I tried.

The funny thing is that even with 12 pop towns I got just about identical score?

In the max-pop cities game (lots of cites around 20-30) I got the same score, as when I left it to 12 pop in the other game. The maps were similar in size, just a little better to the 12-pop map. But only by 40 or so tiles on the world map.

Does this mean we can leave pop out on standard maps?

 

[a space oddity]

Having just 'milked' the COTM2 game, I experienced the same. I gather the difference isn't that big in the 2 versions since the 'happy' citizens are the ones that really count, and they are the ones that work the tiles. I had very large cities in my COTM1 attempt and went for more smaller ones in this game. Score indeed increased, not as far as I would've liked, but it did get me my first 5-digit Firaxis score.

 

[DaveMcW]

You get about the same amount of specialists either way. The only difference between size 12 and size 20+ cities is the extra tile for a citizen to work, due to less city tiles.

On a standard map it isn't worth going for hospitals - they slow you down when you could get maxed-out size 12 cities earlier. But on a huge map the 512-city limit kicks in, and you need metros just to reach the domination limit.

 

[a space oddity]

Right, thanks Dave. I don't know if I'll ever be brave enough to milk a huge map.

 

[fret]

Right, thanks Dave. I don't know if I'll ever be brave enough to milk a huge map.

You should give it a try. Its not so bad really. There is only one time of the game that it can get tedious IMO, usually the transitional period from conquest phase to all out milking, about 30-50 turns or so. They are tough.

But other than that, I love it

 

[Darkness]

Right, thanks Dave. I don't know if I'll ever be brave enough to milk a huge map.

Once you have all the neccessary improvements in your cities, it's not that bad really...
Like Fret said, switching between the conquest and the milk phase can be rather.... tedious.

 

[a space oddity]

Maybe I'll give it a shot, after all it'll not be time limited like the GOTM. So prepare for a report in 2 years or so...

 

[EMan]

You can certainly save time if you keep the cities to size 12......don't have to worry about pollution! (Keep the shields below the Pollution "limit" too!)

Don't have to build Hospitals or Mass Transits; can also terminate tech research at Replaceable Parts; and don't need to discover Industrialization or Medicine.

You could get Shakespeare's Theater if you want to take ONE of your cities above 12!

If you place the cities well, 511 (+1 for the AI's) cities can cover a lot of squares, even with 12 pop max!

Hey, if you go with a good Agricultural Civ like the Mayans, AND you build the city square on a Hill, you don't even lose any points for the "lost" extra worked square! (See DaveMcW's post above)

 

[a space oddity]

...
Hey, if you go with a good Agricultural Civ like the Mayans, AND you build the city square on a Hill, you don't even lose any points for the "lost" extra worked square! (See DaveMcW's post above)

Yes, the Dutch being Agricultural played a big part in my decision to go for milking in the GOTM game, too bad the Jason score compensates for it too.

 

[zerksees]

Then the score started to drop...and drop...and drop even more.

I stayed in Republic all the way in both games, had all luxes and everyone was happy as I said. So what's going on here?

Score is an equation of pts scored/turns played. Each turn the computer calculates the points you scored for that turn and adds it to the points you scored for prior turns. That number is then divided by the total number of turns to display the score you see. (In PTW you can see this, as when you wipe out an AI their score goes down every turn as they are adding 0 to pts scored but the turns played goes up by one.)

In the early game you don't have a lot of points so the number of points scored is low relative to the number of turns. Once you build critical mass each turn nets a lot of points to add to the points scored total but the turns played only goes up by one.

Eventually your points per turn is maxed out and you add the same amount to the points scored total each turn. However, even though it is the same number of points each turn, the amount you add is a smaller and smaller part of the total points scored, and your average per turn goes lower.

Based on the dramatic drop off you described, it sounds like you must have taken control fairly early in the game - 1500's maybe, so you had a long time to milk.

Experienced milkers are used to this drop off and know that the best way to increase the score is to get to milking phase earlier, even though the end turns are not going to be that productive. If all your citizens are happy, all your tiles are worked and you are at the domination limit there is not much you can do to increase the score per turn for that game.

Does this help?

 

[gozpel]

Does this help?

Absolutely!

I didn't understand the reason why the score dropped and I do now.

So next time I will certainly try to get to domination limit earlier. But we talk about Monarch level and standard map here. And I was on the limit around 1000AD in both games I think, but should be bettered by half a millennia.

Thank zerksees

 

[a space oddity]

I'm not really convinced that it is strictly the date land domination is reached.

Moderator Action: We still have another week before COTM2 is finished. - Aeson
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[superslug]

I'm not really convinced that it is strictly the date land domination is reached.

It's not. Playing an Ag civ helps, as does percentage of grassland. An archipelago map will yield less points per tile than a pangaea.

 

[EMan]

An archipelago map will yield less points per tile than a pangaea.

Does that take into account the increase in the number of "FREE" Sea squares?

 

[zerksees]

I was on the limit around 1000AD in both games I think

Thank zerksees

1000 AD! You must be playing monarch for fun.

Glad to help out.

I'm not really convinced that it is strictly the date land domination is reached.

You are right. What I should have said is "all other things being equal".

As you may know, some civvers have made an art form out of finding the right high domination limit map with the map setting optimized to provide whatever they like for grassland tiles, luxuries etc.

Of course you may get some population growth once you hit the tile domination limit (until all cities are full to capacity), and having the ag trait increases the number of people you can support. But eventually those items will plateau and the score increase per turn will be less and less.

I just kind of neglected to get into all these things. I was trying to explain the scoring.

 

[a space oddity]

I was trying to explain the scoring.

I know. You answered the question that was asked.
I was just being overly ethousiastic with my relative success on my second try.

I was answering Gozpels' remark having to reach the domination limit at 500AD. Which is terrific if you can, but 1300AD is the earliest I have ever achieved. I did notice a slightly higher rate when I just reached it and a slower decay. So I also hope that I'm right in that early domination alone isn't everything, just for my own limited capabilities' sake.

 

[superslug]

Does that take into account the increase in the number of "FREE" Sea squares?

Archipelago huge maps have roughly the same number of grasslands as pangaea's, as was documented in another thread. The increase in 'free seas' hasn't really been quantified, but based on experience, I don't believe the amount of free seas compensate, especially considering they're tough to target.

 

[Aeson]

So I also hope that I'm right in that early domination alone isn't everything, just for my own limited capabilities' sake.

The speed which you hit the Domination limit isn't the only factor. How many points you are able to rack up while getting to the Domination limit also counts. A high-pop, high-luxury game will be scoring quite a bit more in the first half of the game than a spartan militaristic expansion that may hit Domination faster.