I dug through some old threads here!

betazed said:
finally! Punkbass and I disagree. :)

Didn't know you'd been keeping score ;) I could have sworn you referring to me in BJ's discussion thread...

Can you show me one example of where science has been dogmatic? Cautious of course. Slow to accept new theories (of course, othewirse it wouldn't work). But dogmatic?

Perhaps not Science itself, but I think you're defining Science in such a way that it could not be dogmatice. Scientists are certainly dogmatic. You can't tell me that one of the great upholders of Science around here, Perfection, is not dogmatic in his approach.

Google defines dogmatic as : characterized by arrogant assertion of unproved or unprovable principles

If something is unprovable and unproven then by definition it is not science.

Ah, but everything is unprovable. Therefore Science is Nothing. It is either dogmatic or meaingless. FTR, my defintion (from The COPD) is:

2. Based on a priori principles...

Most Science presumes that there is, in fact, a world "out there" independent of the observer and that it is possible for the observer to be entirely passive. It also presumes that our senses are reliable and meaningful and indicative of reality.

Beyond that, there are certainly people who follow Science religiously and could be dogmatic by its first definition in my dictionary:

1. A belief or set of beliefsheld by an authority or group, which others are expected to believe without argument

For many, if it is not proven Scientifically, it is all but meaningless. Certainly, children taught in the Church of Science (;)) take it as absolute fact, and, IME, most adults do too. There are few who have transcended to your level of Scientific Objectivism (;)) that recognize Science at its highest level as philosophy. Most, IME, who do not accept Science as fact tend to generally not put a lot of weight in it in the first place.
 
punkbass2000 said:
Didn't know you'd been keeping score I could have sworn you referring to me in BJ's discussion thread...

Did i? You see we agree on so many things that the minor disagreement becomes a celebrated occassion. :)

Scientists are certainly dogmatic.
Agreed.

You can't tell me that one of the great upholders of Science around here, Perfection, is not dogmatic in his approach.

Agreed again. But I still have hopes for him. :)

Ah, but everything is unprovable. Therefore Science is Nothing. It is either dogmatic or meaingless.

Why do you say that everything in unprovable? I would think that everything in science would require a proof of some sort. the proof depending on the science and how hard it is to make may vary in rigor but it will still be sound and be repeatable. This does not mean that what it proves is TRUE (and hence it could still be falsified) but it is definitely true as far as the axioms of the proof go.

Most Science presumes that there is, in fact, a world "out there" independent of the observer and that it is possible for the observer to be entirely passive. It also presumes that our senses are reliable and meaningful and indicative of reality.

Yes. most science does in day to day workings. But not all. For example, cutting edge theoritical physics do not make either of those assumptions. OTOH, It makes the assumption that the universe is mathematically consistent (something which is definitely unproven theoritically but empirically proven everyday millions of times). Now, since physics is the basic groundwork from which all other sciences can be derived from (in prinicple) we can say that "no science presume either our senses or an observer".

For many, if it is not proven Scientifically, it is all but meaningless.

Well, that is another extreme and that is obviously false. As our science expands it explains more and more things and also shows us that there are more things that it does not explian. Which also means that at any point in time there are millions of things not currently proven or explained by science. (I remember putting up 13 unexplained facts a couple of days ago). Just because they are not explained does not make them meaningless.

Certainly, children taught in the Church of Science () take it as absolute fact, and, IME, most adults do too. There are few who have transcended to your level of Scientific Objectivism () that recognize Science at its highest level as philosophy.

IMHO, they do not understand science at all and do a disservice towards it.
 
betazed said:
Did i? You see we agree on so many things that the minor disagreement becomes a celebrated occassion. :)

You said something about not being able to discuss things with many people, and pointed generally at the thread you were posting in, where I had had a couple nice one-liners.

Agreed again. But I still have hopes for him. :)

Young still, he is. Unlearn the ways of the dark side, he will. (Don't tell him I'm really his father ;))

Why do you say that everything in unprovable? I would think that everything in science would require a proof of some sort. the proof depending on the science and how hard it is to make may vary in rigor but it will still be sound and be repeatable. This does not mean that what it proves is TRUE (and hence it could still be falsified) but it is definitely true as far as the axioms of the proof go.

Well, I say everything is unprovable because there is no mechanism for knowing that any perception is valid. There is no practical method to absolutely divide the observer from the observed. To take the Brahmin quote "Tat Tvam Asi", or, in English, "That is you". To put it into a bit more of a comprehensible way, I'll take Fred Alan Wolf's interpretation, "I am this whole universe". Things are, at best, only provable within their own context. You could say that an apple falls to ground every time you drop it, but that is inaccurate. What you mean (well closer to what you mean) is that, assuming you can trust your memory, every time you perceive something of appleness that you perceive to drop, you perceive that it falls to the ground. Aside from being awkward, it does little good for Science. No one would care a whit if I said every time I talked to god he responded. They would claim I was crazy, halluncinating, that I was perceiving was not real, while the apple falling is. Why? Arguably, because we perceive others telling us that they too perceive the apple falling.

Yes. most science does in day to day workings. But not all. For example, cutting edge theoritical physics do not make either of those assumptions. OTOH, It makes the assumption that the universe is mathematically consistent (something which is definitely unproven theoritically but empirically proven everyday millions of times). Now, since physics is the basic groundwork from which all other sciences can be derived from (in prinicple) we can say that "no science presume either our senses or an observer".

Yes, but cutting edge physics is also induction based. Even the observations are based on effects hat are assumed to be true. They are philosophical conjectures at best. From Planck, through Bohr, Einstein, Bohm and a host of others, the evolution of quantum theory is really little more than Democritus' theory of atoms, really. That we can conclude that the observer must affect the the observed we must agree that there is no pasive observer, and without passive observation there is nothing concrete to be said.



Well, that is another extreme and that is obviously false. As our science expands it explains more and more things and also shows us that there are more things that it does not explian. Which also means that at any point in time there are millions of things not currently proven or explained by science. (I remember putting up 13 unexplained facts a couple of days ago). Just because they are not explained does not make them meaningless.

IMHO, they do not understand science at all and do a disservice towards it.

Well, the same could be said for just about any following. The meaning is lost in the message, IMO. Glad to see you're not too constrained by the illusion of Time, as I'm sure your article was posted at least a couple of weeks ago ;).
 
This discussion is slowly evolving away from scientific philosophy to philosophy proper and I can feel the ground slipping away from beneath my feet. :) Anyway, I will comment till I can maintain balance.

Well, I say everything is unprovable because there is no mechanism for knowing that any perception is valid. There is no practical method to absolutely divide the observer from the observed. To take the Brahmin quote "Tat Tvam Asi", or, in English, "That is you". To put it into a bit more of a comprehensible way, I'll take Fred Alan Wolf's interpretation, "I am this whole universe".

Actually, I never realized why they translate Sanskrit that way. the correct pronunciation of that phrase should be "Ta Tvam Si". The second T and the last A is non-existent in sanskrit and a artifact of English spelling. Like most of the rest of Upanishads it is open to interpretation but "I am this whole universe" doesn't sound right (but maybe it is in context). The literal meaning would be "It is you." Since I have not read that particular text I do not know what it means in that context (or in the present context).

Things are, at best, only provable within their own context. You could say that an apple falls to ground every time you drop it, but that is inaccurate. What you mean (well closer to what you mean) is that, assuming you can trust your memory, every time you perceive something of appleness that you perceive to drop, you perceive that it falls to the ground. Aside from being awkward, it does little good for Science. No one would care a whit if I said every time I talked to god he responded. They would claim I was crazy, halluncinating, that I was perceiving was not real, while the apple falling is. Why? Arguably, because we perceive others telling us that they too perceive the apple falling.

Not sure how this is related to what we were discussing.

Yes, but cutting edge physics is also induction based. Even the observations are based on effects hat are assumed to be true.

See this is precisely where we differ. I am saying is that observation does not necessarily need to be part of science anymore. So coming back to our original discussion "proof by observation" is not the only kind of proof that is acceptable. Of course at a certain point in time you have to make some observations but progress can be made even without observations. . Proof owing to and by consistency requirement is also a valid proof.

They are philosophical conjectures at best. From Planck, through Bohr, Einstein, Bohm and a host of others, the evolution of quantum theory is really little more than Democritus' theory of atoms, really. That we can conclude that the observer must affect the the observed we must agree that there is no pasive observer, and without passive observation there is nothing concrete to be said.

Again not sure how this relates to our discussion but taking that pov is a very restictive. You could probably have said that in say 1940s. But we have made so much progress since then. Present day particle physics has concepts that would have been impossible to explain to Democritus. In fact the concept of atoms have become so quaint and so insignificant that we can actually do away with the concept of atoms (or individual particles) altogether in many cases and talk of more fundamental concepts like interactions, symmetry, fields etc. For example, if you pick up a standard particle physics/field theory book you will probably see that it does not talk about atoms unless in a historical context.
 
punkbass2000 said:
Well, even without the technicalities, I would yield that some might not consider a religion per se, as many seem to think religion requires a god. But really, what is and is not a religion is as fine a line to draw as any. You could say Taoism was a religion or that it was not. In any case, Science is certainly dogmatic.

Time to repeat myself once again:

My post in the Sacred Science thread:

FredLC said:
No, science will never be religion, and the simplest explanation to it is: science is too realistic for that.

See, due to science being very hard, it is true that the most uneducated brand of society accept the saying of the people versed in it as they accept the saying of religious authorities… as the given knowledge of a superior source. Simply put, many of the population of the world lacks the intelligence necessary to understand it, the education necessary to comprehend it, or they lack both. Those who aren’t among the few privileged enough to have both brains and schooling take it as gospel, not because science itself present itself that way, but because they cannot deny science power (as most people is benefited by some aspect of modern science in one or other direct way), and they receive over-simplified (and rather incomplete) versions of science findings as explanations they can reach for such achievements.

After all, a plane flying does sound like a miracle to those who do not have the faintest idea about what are combustion, engines and aerodynamics.

However, the hardness of science is not an invincible obstacle. Except those who are obtuse by birth – and there are those – any man can, given the opportunity, choose to study it, and studying it will actually teach the mechanisms behind it. In science, there are no mysteries that have to be accepted as so, and here, in this principle of understanding, lies the first and most fundamental difference from science and religion.

The second difference is being very underestimated in this very thread. It’s the fact that, unlike some people mentioned, science is not dogmatic. Quite the contrary, the very essence of science is the opening it has to new ideas, the fluent nature of knowledge, and the encouragement for revisionism of older ideas. It is the very anti-thesis of dogmatism, and people tend to brand science as so due to the fact that it stands by solid ideas even when they are unpopular to some part of society, namely the “creation X evolution” debates.

Sorry, science differs from religion entirely in this aspect, I’m sorry to say that to those who like to brand science as that. Great man of science are not entitled to state things arbitrarily, they have to be backed by testable and reproducible evidence – unlike great man of religion, that decides what is right or wrong out of their own heads, than after rely on “you can’t prove me wrong” (as if anyone could ever prove a negative).

The third aspect of difference, and this one also fundamental, is that science does not provide generic comfort. Unlike religion, that is all about loving deities, eternal lives and reward for the good versus punishment for the wicked, science deals only with material and measurable information, and it prescribes reality exactly in the best way our resources allow, whether we enjoy what we find or not. So yeah, to science, you will live this short life and that is it, no everlasting prorogation in a heavenly paradise. And yeah, if a bad man dies unpunished, sorry to say but he got away, no little devils with forks expecting him in a fiery hell.

Life is not intrinsically good, not intrinsically fair, and that is a harsh reality that science never runs away from. Whatever good we want, we have to build, we can’t count on celestial daddies to give it to us. And by lacking this tendency to give a (unrealistic) comfort, it will never replace the emotional place of religion in the heart of many man. A price it pays for it’s intellectual honesty.

Last but not least, science is universal, unrelated to people by their ethnical background, or by their acceptance of the scientific world. Science, defined as a “description of the reality”, does not need approval, and a surgery will save the life of even those who don’t believe in medicine. “Opening your heart” to it is insignificant, unlike religion, that only have appeal to those emotionally vulnerable to it.

Plain and simple, what happens is the fact that we are lucky enough to live in an era where science is in its prime, getting better and stronger by the minute, explaining the world more and more, and giving solutions to an enormous amount of problems that once were untouchable. And its outstanding efficiency grants science and the scientific method a growing trust with the population, a popularity that is the inevitable consequence of anything that is able to so positively change the life of people.

However, as science explains the world to us, and once it was (and in many aspects it still is) the role of religion, they tend to conflict. As the religious explanations are systematically and categorically been swallowed down by the far more reasonable, and extremely better substantiated scientific approaches to the same problems, science tends to gain more space, and religion tends to loose appeal.

Religion reacts to that in several manners, all of them counting with the deep roots it have in society. The first is to state that science is limited, hence not comparable with the absolutism of the believe – what is a complete inversion of reality, as its exactly because science accepts that it is not perfect what allows it to perfect itself into an unparalleled benchmark of efficiency; Second, by distorting science claims to make them sound ridicule (failing to see that saying that it is “absurd that a gorilla gives birth to a man” is only to equate science to it’s own level, that states that man is a “walking mud statue”*)

* - note: I used the creation X evolution example, but this is only allegoric, I don’t want to turn this into a creation X evolution thread.

Finally, when they realize that science will start appealing the population (in a distorted way, as I previously explained, but in a way that represents the basics of scientific thinking anyway), religious tries another shot by claiming that it is a new form of religion itself. This is basically an approach that tries to equate the two visions (to make it sound as if going for one instead of the other was just an aspect of taste, having nothing to do with the proficiency of the two paradigms), and a way to ignore that the reason for the growth of the ruthless, uncomforting claims of science before the fluffy “it’s gonna be alright” of religion is the fact that science is actually doing things to make life better, and it’s so undeniable that people cannot ignore it forever. So, science really does not promises, but it delivers anyway, and this will make people sensible to the fact that you can be good without being demagogic, and that in fact it’s easier to be good that way.

If one day the respect for science and its axiom replaces entirely religion – what a doubt will ever happen – we won’t have a new great religion on the world, what we will have is a principle of understanding and a solid grasp on reality as a humane trait, things that are quite lacking in the world presently.

But don’t worry, as long as there are people that wishes absolute answers and words of relief and of comfort (even if unrealistic), nothing ever will erase religion from the face of earth.


Regards :).
 
betazed said:
This discussion is slowly evolving away from scientific philosophy to philosophy proper and I can feel the ground slipping away from beneath my feet. :) Anyway, I will comment till I can maintain balance.

I won't laugh if you fall. OK, I will, but it won't be personal, and it won't be at you. ;)

Actually, I never realized why they translate Sanskrit that way. the correct pronunciation of that phrase should be "Ta Tvam Si". The second T and the last A is non-existent in sanskrit and a artifact of English spelling. Like most of the rest of Upanishads it is open to interpretation but "I am this whole universe" doesn't sound right (but maybe it is in context). The literal meaning would be "It is you." Since I have not read that particular text I do not know what it means in that context (or in the present context).

I don't know Sanskrit, so I can't say. I think the context, for Wolf, is that what you observe is as much you as anything else.

Not sure how this is related to what we were discussing.

Not sure how you're not sure. My reply is based on the idea that some things are provable. But you're defining provable without it including Truth, it seems, so I guess it's really a moot point. I agree you can "prove" things to a reasonable enough degree to rely and put faith in them, but this, going back to my central point, is ultimately relgious in nature.

See this is precisely where we differ. I am saying is that observation does not necessarily need to be part of science anymore. So coming back to our original discussion "proof by observation" is not the only kind of proof that is acceptable. Of course at a certain point in time you have to make some observations but progress can be made even without observations. .

Well, yes. But it still has precepts that you yourself admit. Consistency, first and foremost.

Proof owing to and by consistency requirement is also a valid proof.

AFAIC, this is an a priori statement. What makes something a valid proof?

Again not sure how this relates to our discussion but taking that pov is a very restictive.

I disagree here, as I think this point of view actually casts off restrictions altogether, but I will not take issue. :)

You could probably have said that in say 1940s. But we have made so much progress since then. Present day particle physics has concepts that would have been impossible to explain to Democritus.

I don't mean to say that Democritus could hae understood or that the absolute body of knowledge is at the same volume as in Democritus' time, just that the process and philosophical nature of the theory is comparable.

In fact the concept of atoms have become so quaint and so insignificant that we can actually do away with the concept of atoms (or individual particles) altogether in many cases and talk of more fundamental concepts like interactions, symmetry, fields etc. For example, if you pick up a standard particle physics/field theory book you will probably see that it does not talk about atoms unless in a historical context.

But this is almost precisely the problem. Physics seems to presume that we can understand the universe by taking it apart. Once, molecules were the smallest things, and learning about them explained reality as we know it. Then atoms did. And so on to the Nth degree, except now it appears that quarks operate in such a manner that they are incompatible with any macroscopic theory. You may say that some day very large physics theories will be reconciliable with very small physics theories, but that is not yet the case.
 
FredLC said:
science is too realistic for that.

That is really a meaningless statement. What makes something realistic? To even declare it realistic implies some underlying knowledge of inhereent realities. This is already a priori belief system structuring.

FredLC said:
See, due to science being very hard, it is true that the most uneducated brand of society accept the saying of the people versed in it as they accept the saying of religious authorities… as the given knowledge of a superior source. Simply put, many of the population of the world lacks the intelligence necessary to understand it, the education necessary to comprehend it, or they lack both. Those who aren’t among the few privileged enough to have both brains and schooling take it as gospel, not because science itself present itself that way, but because they cannot deny science power (as most people is benefited by some aspect of modern science in one or other direct way), and they receive over-simplified (and rather incomplete) versions of science findings as explanations they can reach for such achievements.

After all, a plane flying does sound like a miracle to those who do not have the faintest idea about what are combustion, engines and aerodynamics.

However, the hardness of science is not an invincible obstacle. Except those who are obtuse by birth – and there are those – any man can, given the opportunity, choose to study it, and studying it will actually teach the mechanisms behind it. In science, there are no mysteries that have to be accepted as so, and here, in this principle of understanding, lies the first and most fundamental difference from science and religion.

This part I more or less agree with, and is similar in nature to what betazed has had to say. My only real poinmt is that I wouldn't say those that understand this are more intelligent and that there are those who simply cannot understand it.

FredLC said:
The second difference is being very underestimated in this very thread. It’s the fact that, unlike some people mentioned, science is not dogmatic. Quite the contrary, the very essence of science is the opening it has to new ideas, the fluent nature of knowledge, and the encouragement for revisionism of older ideas. It is the very anti-thesis of dogmatism, and people tend to brand science as so due to the fact that it stands by solid ideas even when they are unpopular to some part of society, namely the “creation X evolution” debates.

Again, I see a similar argument to betazed's. You are defining Science as something which does not give into dogmatism. Yet this statement is dogmatic in and of itself. Beyond that, I think you too will agree that Scientists tend to be dogmatic. You can argue that Scientists are not inherently representative of Science itself, but aside from the Platonic difficulties of trying to separate "ideal Scienceness" from Science itself, I could also argue that religions are not represented by their believers. IOW, if Science is not dogmatic, then neither are religions.

FredLC said:
Sorry, science differs from religion entirely in this aspect, I’m sorry to say that to those who like to brand science as that. Great man of science are not entitled to state things arbitrarily, they have to be backed by testable and reproducible evidence – unlike great man of religion, that decides what is right or wrong out of their own heads, than after rely on “you can’t prove me wrong” (as if anyone could ever prove a negative).

Still a priori beliefs, putting faith in senses and memory, among other things.

FredLC said:
The third aspect of difference, and this one also fundamental, is that science does not provide generic comfort. Unlike religion, that is all about loving deities, eternal lives and reward for the good versus punishment for the wicked, science deals only with material and measurable information, and it prescribes reality exactly in the best way our resources allow, whether we enjoy what we find or not. So yeah, to science, you will live this short life and that is it, no everlasting prorogation in a heavenly paradise. And yeah, if a bad man dies unpunished, sorry to say but he got away, no little devils with forks expecting him in a fiery hell.

Life is not intrinsically good, not intrinsically fair, and that is a harsh reality that science never runs away from. Whatever good we want, we have to build, we can’t count on celestial daddies to give it to us. And by lacking this tendency to give a (unrealistic) comfort, it will never replace the emotional place of religion in the heart of many man. A price it pays for it’s intellectual honesty.

Now you are just painting religion with a broad brush. Some religions operate in this sense, but not all. Certainly Buddhism does not preach that life is nherantly good.

FredLC said:
Last but not least, science is universal, unrelated to people by their ethnical background, or by their acceptance of the scientific world. Science, defined as a “description of the reality”, does not need approval, and a surgery will save the life of even those who don’t believe in medicine. “Opening your heart” to it is insignificant, unlike religion, that only have appeal to those emotionally vulnerable to it.

I could certainly say the same for Taoism. You follow the Tao whether you like it or not. Struggling against merely tends to cause discord. Taoism will not save your life, but then again to argue that your life is saved by surgery presupposes that Science is correct. When a JW is physical body is saved by a blood transfusion, if Science is right, then you're argument is right. If they're belief is right, then their soul is forever tarnished and they have not been saved at all.

FredLC said:
Plain and simple, what happens is the fact that we are lucky enough to live in an era where science is in its prime, getting better and stronger by the minute, explaining the world more and more, and giving solutions to an enormous amount of problems that once were untouchable. And its outstanding efficiency grants science and the scientific method a growing trust with the population, a popularity that is the inevitable consequence of anything that is able to so positively change the life of people.

This certainly a faith-based argument. Is life "better" now? Quantifiably, where Science rules, it certainly is. Are we happier or otherwise better off in qualitative senses? Arguable at best. To say we are lucky to now be living in a Scientific society would be no different than a 12th century priest saying that we are blessed to be living in a moral, Christian society.

FredLC said:
However, as science explains the world to us, and once it was (and in many aspects it still is) the role of religion, they tend to conflict. As the religious explanations are systematically and categorically been swallowed down by the far more reasonable, and extremely better substantiated scientific approaches to the same problems, science tends to gain more space, and religion tends to loose appeal.

You could say that Christiantiy conflicts with Islam or any other religion in the same way if you didn't presume that Science and religion were diametrically opposed.

FredLC said:
Finally, when they realize that science will start appealing the population (in a distorted way, as I previously explained, but in a way that represents the basics of scientific thinking anyway), religious tries another shot by claiming that it is a new form of religion itself. This is basically an approach that tries to equate the two visions (to make it sound as if going for one instead of the other was just an aspect of taste, having nothing to do with the proficiency of the two paradigms), and a way to ignore that the reason for the growth of the ruthless, uncomforting claims of science before the fluffy “it’s gonna be alright” of religion is the fact that science is actually doing things to make life better, and it’s so undeniable that people cannot ignore it forever. So, science really does not promises, but it delivers anyway, and this will make people sensible to the fact that you can be good without being demagogic, and that in fact it’s easier to be good that way.

If one day the respect for science and its axiom replaces entirely religion – what a doubt will ever happen – we won’t have a new great religion on the world, what we will have is a principle of understanding and a solid grasp on reality as a humane trait, things that are quite lacking in the world presently.

But don’t worry, as long as there are people that wishes absolute answers and words of relief and of comfort (even if unrealistic), nothing ever will erase religion from the face of earth.

Quite frankly, your whole post smacks of the Western religions and, what's more their followers. Here, you criticize religion for changing with the times, yet previously you have praised Science for the same. You criticize religion for its followers, yet absolve Science of the same. Just because Science better explains your ideas of reality does not mean there will be some Truth that all will know now that they were ultimately denying previously.
 
Punkbass2000:

Interesting reply. I shall retort in good time, sooner than later.

Meanwhile, I just urge you to get aquainted with the "quote" command. It will make following your posts quite a bit easier.

Regards :).
 
betazed said:
No. Nothing in science is ever absolutely true. Everything is falsifiable. Actually being falsifiable is a basic and fundamental requirement for a scientific theory. {which is the reason why ID is not a scientific theory. } Science progresses by falsifying existing theories. So even by that definiton of dogma science is not about dogmas.

2 + 2 = 4 is falsifiable?

Mathematics, the only exact science! :D
 
Quasar1011 said:
2 + 2 = 4 is falsifiable?

Mathematics, the only exact science! :D

Math is not a science. (BTW, don't you find the word maths wierd? It just doesn't sound right)

I fail to see the point of the thread -- we know were that our disscussions have no point, are circluar, full of sound and fury, and have no great effect on the world deep down inside. It just our egos are so fragile that we cannot expect it to be true, so we pretend the opposite true.
 
Babbler said:
Math is not a science. (BTW, don't you find the word maths wierd? It just doesn't sound right)

I fail to see the point of the thread -- we know were that our disscussions have no point, are circluar, full of sound and fury, and have no great effect on the world deep down inside. It just our egos are so fragile that we cannot expect it to be true, so we pretend the opposite true.

I would say I fail to see the point of anything...
 
Akka said:
Well, then please make it so that the beginning of the first sentence have a meaning :P
Please enlighten me. I originally had "Ayant nous rendu sains...", but my instructor corrected it to "Nous ayant rendu". The first way sounded preferable to me, but I trusted her. What's the correct way?
 
Taliesin said:
Please enlighten me. I originally had "Ayant nous rendu sains...", but my instructor corrected it to "Nous ayant rendu". The first way sounded preferable to me, but I trusted her. What's the correct way?
I thought "Ayant nous rendus sains des fantômes" was correct - translated as "having given up our sanity to the fantoms" - serving as an introductory clause. "Nous ayant rendu" doesn't sound right to me, but I have no basis for the differentiation. I can make it sound right in my head, but it requires some thinking and forcing.
 
It translates literally as "having rendered ourselves healthy from phantoms", or more expressively "having cleared our minds of phantoms". The composed past has direct-object pronouns before the auxiliary, in this case ayant, so "nous ayant rendu" would seem to be right, but there may be a special rule concerning gerunds of which I am not aware. Hopefully Akka will be around shortly.
 
punkbass2000 said:
Russell thought so for a while, but eventually concluded that mathematics could not be entirely true. It is self-referrential. "2 + 2 = 4" is only true because it is defined to be so.
Not really. Arithmetic is derivable from the axioms of set theory.

Now, you might point out those axioms are only true because we define them to be true. Well, that's pretty much the definition of an axiom. :p
 
Ah, well, I see ^^

"ayant nous rendu" is incorrect. "Nous ayant rendu" is the good form.

It's the "rendu sains des fantômes" which lack formal meaning. "sain" means, in fact "sane", "clean" or "healthy" (depending if you use it for mind, place or body). But you can't make someone "sain de quelque-chose/quelqu'un" ("sane/healthy of/from something/someone"), as "sain" is an adjective, and as such is automatically applied on the subject.
At best, you could make someone sane ABOUT something ("sains à propos de..."). But even then, it would sound weird.

I'm not sure I grasp the idea of "clearing our minds of phantoms".
Did you mean something like having made go away the ghosts of the past/the mind/the superstition ?
Did you mean some kind of exorcism ?

I'd like to help with the translation, but I would need the deep meaning of the sentence :)
 
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