I found relegion in Civ:BE? but it does'nt make any sense

General_Hz

Chieftain
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
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Hello everyone while i was searching through the files of Civ:BE I found in the folder assets/gameplay/xml folder a sub folder named "Relegions" and i thought that's just leftovers from Civ V or something but when i opened the same files in Civ v folder they were diffrent in content, can someone shed a light on this matter?
 
Short version: Firaxis didn't bother to remove religion XML entries when migrating Civ5 files over to BE.
Heck, you can also find files and entries related to ideologies, tourism, and even city-states in BE, even though none of that stuff is actually in the game.

Just because the entries are there doesn't mean religion can be enabled in-game: Firaxis likely commented out or disabled all religion-related functions within the DLL, so even though you'll find relevant parameters in the XML files, the game doesn't actually use any of those values.
 
Slightly longer version...

Actually there is BE-specific religion stuff in the files. (New beliefs, etc.)

Make of it what you will.
 
It could be they started out with the idea of porting over religions then decided to rework it as affinities. So they may have made a bunch of changes to tables, said screw it and came up with a whole new system.
 
The more I think about religion and BE together seems very odd for me to figure out until I see the whole big picture, then discuss about it's worth.

How do we put religion into place in BE? will they tagged along with the affinity system to make affinity appeared stronger and more strong ties with the faction? What are the benefits of these religions? If there is ever a possibly, will there be a system for those who wish to become atheists and discard the religion system itself and put up something else for the nonbelievers?

These are the questions that I runs though my mind when it comes down to seeing the big picture, and the biggest one of them all is: "will this be implemented into the game or discarded?" preferable I recommend keeping that because who know what modder can take that system and integrate it into their fantasy mod in the future, then toss it into the data void.
 
These are the questions that I runs though my mind when it comes down to seeing the big picture, and the biggest one of them all is: "will this be implemented into the game or discarded?" preferable I recommend keeping that because who know what modder can take that system and integrate it into their fantasy mod in the future, then toss it into the data void.

The religion system is probably still there in the core, but there is no UI support for that.

I don't quite like the idea of religions as they are in Civ V being implemented in the game because that would make founding a religion or adopting a religion a mandatory logical choice.
That's fine in an historical setting since religions in a way or another shaped cultures and civilizations but not so much in a sci-fi setting where having no religion can be seen as a positive thing

In SMAC you had the option of choosing between fundamentalism and atheistic policy state, each with their pro and cons, I don't want Civ BE to turn into something where you can either choose a religion or renounce to useful perks.
And no I don't want "atheism" to be treated as a religion either.
 
I'm fairly certain all of the BNW systems are still in the DLL, just not connected to the game logic. In the future when we have the DLL we might even be able to just rewrite the database code for religion and hook it up very quickly, if we are lucky.
 
I am guessing that they wouldn't have called them "religions" if they implemented them.
 
The religion system is probably still there in the core, but there is no UI support for that.

I don't quite like the idea of religions as they are in Civ V being implemented in the game because that would make founding a religion or adopting a religion a mandatory logical choice.
That's fine in an historical setting since religions in a way or another shaped cultures and civilizations but not so much in a sci-fi setting where having no religion can be seen as a positive thing

In SMAC you had the option of choosing between fundamentalism and atheistic policy state, each with their pro and cons, I don't want Civ BE to turn into something where you can either choose a religion or renounce to useful perks.
And no I don't want "atheism" to be treated as a religion either.
I think it would be ok actually

If religion had greater emphasis on the moral values, and everyone was rational.

There's really nothing wrong with religion for defining human values, but explaining rationality just doesn't work.
 
I don't quite like the idea of religions as they are in Civ V being implemented in the game because that would make founding a religion or adopting a religion a mandatory logical choice.
You're approaching this from a misguided view: you're thinking about the religion system as a religion system, while you should actually think about it as a religion system. Nothing's stopping you from wrapping all the names and graphics of that system into a more sci-fi suitable package: mega-corporations, knowledge/social networks, various cults (not necessarily religious, eg. cults of personality that help with city-flipping, cults of extremism that give you bonuses against anyone not following the same cult, cults of modernism that let you refund old policies, cults of ultraconservatism that give you bonuses for being behind in science and/or culture), etc.

In SMAC you had the option of choosing between fundamentalism and atheistic policy state, each with their pro and cons, I don't want Civ BE to turn into something where you can either choose a religion or renounce to useful perks.
And no I don't want "atheism" to be treated as a religion either.
The SMAC I remember had only one social engineering civic that could be interpreted as religious, fundamentalism. Heck, fundamentalism's meaning is more akin to "ultra-conservatism"; the only reason people immediately associate fundamentalism with religion is because of how far back those religions go in terms of cultural influence. SMAC mentioned nothing about the police state civic being atheistic, or even the knowledge civic being anti- or non-religious.
 
You're approaching this from a misguided view: you're thinking about the religion system as a religion system, while you should actually think about it as a religion system.

I don't think it's misguided, perhaps limited, but not misguided, the religion system is meant to be a religious system. You may use it for other things, but that means you are going to use it for something that it wasn't intended to. The result may not be exactly nice, and I doubt people that are used to Civ V can shake off the idea that they are spreading religions in spite of what the text and UI will say.

The SMAC I remember had only one social engineering civic that could be interpreted as religious, fundamentalism. Heck, fundamentalism's meaning is more akin to "ultra-conservatism";

The Datalinks are pretty clear at defining "fundamentalism" as "religious fundamentalism"

Fundamentalist politics unite a society behind a strong, dogmatic
religion. Evangelizing the populace can create loyal, even fanatical
military forces, and tends to immunize citizens against (other forms of)
brainwashing, but technological research tends to suffer under the
continual assaults on intellectual integrity associated with such
regimes.


SMAC mentioned nothing about the police state civic being atheistic, or even the knowledge civic being anti- or non-religious.

Yes and no. It's true that the social policy itself does not mention Atheism, However the Faction Profile of Sheng-Ji Yang reports as his agenda "Atheist Police State".

Moreover Democracy and Police State are mutually exclusive to Fundamentalism and if you adopt the latter the factions that adopted the formers will tell you

"$TITLE0 $NAME1, it pains me to see you supporting fundamentalist
zealotry at the expense of intellectual progress, human dignity,
and virtually any other worthwhile value. Let remind you that we
are living in the third millenium, and urge you to put your religion
aside as the relic that it is
."

Which means they aren't simply disdainful of fanatism but of religion itself.
 
I don't think it's misguided, perhaps limited, but not misguided, the religion system is meant to be a religious system. You may use it for other things, but that means you are going to use it for something that it wasn't intended to. The result may not be exactly nice, and I doubt people that are used to Civ V can shake off the idea that they are spreading religions in spite of what the text and UI will say.



The Datalinks are pretty clear at defining "fundamentalism" as "religious fundamentalism"






Yes and no. It's true that the social policy itself does not mention Atheism, However the Faction Profile of Sheng-Ji Yang reports as his agenda "Atheist Police State".

Moreover Democracy and Police State are mutually exclusive to Fundamentalism and if you adopt the latter the factions that adopted the formers will tell you



Which means they aren't simply disdainful of fanatism but of religion itself.

Fundamentalism has been defined by its leading historian as the demand for a strict adherence to certain theological doctrines, in reaction against Modernist theology
I would say that the religious fervour with which the world has embraced neoliberal economics, despite its complete lack of benefit over 30 years for the western world, was a type of fundamentalism?
 
You may use it for other things, but that means you are going to use it for something that it wasn't intended to. The result may not be exactly nice, and I doubt people that are used to Civ V can shake off the idea that they are spreading religions in spite of what the text and UI will say.
It frankly doesn't matter what a system was intended for, if it fits with the new package perfectly (and it definitely does for cults, mega-corporations as well if you don't employ "faith" as a resource and stick with manipulating other factors), the fact that it was originally meant to portray religions is irrelevant.
As for Civ5 players being used to spreading religion, I actually see that as a strength: it would allow for immediate contrast between organized religions and whatever the new system represents. The worst it will do is make people think and reflect on whether what they like and dislike about religions is [only] inherent to organized religions or is a mutable property that can extend to other concepts as well.

The Datalinks are pretty clear at defining "fundamentalism" as "religious fundamentalism"

<snip>

Yes and no. It's true that the social policy itself does not mention Atheism, However the Faction Profile of Sheng-Ji Yang reports as his agenda "Atheist Police State".
Moreover Democracy and Police State are mutually exclusive to Fundamentalism and if you adopt the latter the factions that adopted the formers will tell you
<snip>
I'd say the last bit depends on the leader: it would be more along the lines of, "We've had separation of church and state for over 500 years now, yet you've decided to regress?" for Lal and Deidre, with room for interpretation for others (I'm mainly thinking of Morgan, Santiago, Pirates, Caretakers, and Usurpers). Otherwise, I stand corrected.

[Would you] say that the <snip> fervor with which the world has embraced neoliberal economics <snip> was a type of fundamentalism?
First of all, quoting Wikipedia is never a good thing (not a reliable source, I can easily just modify a quoted passage to suit my argument). Arguing about a definition is pointless, since definitions are strictly a medium for concepts and ideas; unless some of the parties understand a vital word/phrase differently from the rest, debating definitions only serves to make one party feel self-righteous, it doesn't actually do anything constructive (ie. help advance the evolution, expansion, and/or adoption of concepts and ideas).
The <snip>'s are meant to help focus on constructive paths and avoid turning the thread into a toxic waste dump of unwavering hatred; my apologies if you feel insulted.

In any case, the [internal] definition I use (emphasis: in my head, not necessarily the widespread definition) for fundamentalism is abstracted from organized religion: it's a sort of effort to shift the implementation of an idea towards a "pure", literal form. Since the "purity" of the implementation is paramount, all other ideas would be subservient.
As a result, if by "neoliberal economics", you meant "neoclassical economics", then no, I wouldn't say the adoption of its tenants in the English-speaking world has been fundamentalist: for example, pretty much all governments still subsidize some economic sectors (usually agriculture, transportation, and energy), whereas "pure" neoclassical economics leaves no room for subsidization.
 
If you look at the beliefs file it looks like they were developing a religion system for BE at some point. They even have these two lines that you don't see in CiV's belief file.

<Column name="CreatesCreed" type="boolean" default="false"/>
<Column name="CreatesDogma" type="text" reference="Religions(Type)" default="NULL"/>

That aside, I personally wouldn't enjoy any religion system in BE. Or at least any religion system that resembles past civ games were you found new religions. The major religions of today have existed for 2000+ years. I find it odd that these colonists would completely abandon their long held beliefs so quickly.

If we look at history for comparison, American colonists, with slight differences, were still very much Christians hundreds of years after leaving their homelands.

This is of course ignoring the more fundamental change in beliefs and humanity that affinities do a good job of portraying.
 
Affinities are already pretty much religions. Even Supremacy, which is good at driving home the fact that religion and science are actually not at all mutually exclusive, something a lot of people have trouble processing (particularly if they have an outdated, sometimes medieval concept of religion). It's all about what you choose to enshrine and deify.

Anyway, I'm not sure how the Civ5 faith-based system could be implemented in any complementary or standalone way in CivBE. It could represent something else, like, say, the corporations of Civ4 (which were a lot like religions, mechanically).

Who knows.
 
We'll probably see some form of religion on an expansion. Perhaps once an intelligent alien race is in.
 
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