I hate coastal starts

[futurehermit]

I often find myself regenerating if I get a coastal start. Here is why I hate them:

1) Often you have a pile of crap water tiles that really do nothing for a capital, especially a bureaucracy capital.

2) #1 means you often have to either pretty much sacrifice bureaucracy (which is expensive so you want to get max benefit) or else move your capital spending hammers on a pricy palace during a time when hammers are critical.

3) Even if you choose to move your capital, you may have tundra/desert/mountains/etc. or in other words you may not have a good bureaucracy-capital location in the center of your empire to help cut maintenance.

4) If you keep your capital on the coast, that means that as you spread out your empire, maintenance costs are going to add up much faster because you are limited in terms of the directions you can expand.

5) Often these cities are low-production meaning it can be difficult to churn out everything you need early-game.

As corollaries to these points, I often:

1) Find myself not ever building the GLH. Sailing/masonry generally aren't on my tech priorities list and again often there are production shortages during a critical time.

2) Find myself not whipping enough early in the game (Coastal capitals tend to have high-food on average).

Maybe these are the seeds of an answer, but I'm not sure. How do people normally proceed if they get a coastal start? I know that Snaaty was fond of moving 6 tiles inland, but I find when I try this I often end up in a pile of desert/jungle/tundra or a food shortage and can't find a decent spot to settle costing too many turns and I just restart.

Thanks!

 

[AmazonQueen]

I like coastal starts but then I like island and archipelago maps. Start in the middle of a continent, sure you have lots of choices for where to expand but other civs soon limit that, and your borders aren't as easy to mark out meaning you need more troops to deal with neighbours and barbarians
Assuming you get a decent mix of tiles production shouldn't be too low early on surely? How many mines can you work at low POP?
Seafood means rapid growth if you want it, good for slavery.

 

[Sjaramei]

I regen unless it's a good coastal start. (Very high resource/sea tiles ratio) If i get like 8-9 coastal/sea squares I regen most of the time. And of course if i start with a Civ without fishing thats another reason to restart.

(and what is up with getting a capital with 6-7 sea and no fish/sea food!?, what a waste.... i hate those starts)

 

[absimiliard]

For me it's situational I guess. If I'm playing a civ that has fishing I tend to want them. I like boat first if it's possible. Most of the time I'm not playing a fishing civ and then I tend to regen if it's a crappy position and not if it's not.

-abs

 

[Cookie Crumbs]

Coastal starts aren't too bad if you're Financial -yes, a 2F3C tile is far from the best you could have but it's not bad. However, I hate them if I'm not Financial. 2F2C is absolute garbage.


I generally don't play coastal starts, because I want the most of Bureaucracy and such cities tend to be low in production because of fewer tiles that can be hills.
It is possible to leverage coastal starts with Industrious, however. I got my earliest Warlords/Vanilla Space Race victory of 1796 using Huayna Capac and grabbing the GL and ToA with his trait (compared to 1830-ish for my normal game on Prince). In BtS I wouldn't recommend it so much now due to the watering down of ToA's benefits in BtS (the bonii are cumulative with all the others now).

 

[Gliese 581]

Like others said, if you get a sea resource and have fishing it's great. I've also found that I like this start with civs that have crappy start techs (like the byzantines). Then you have time to research a couple of worker techs while you grow and build a work boat before you build a worker that would have nothing or very little to do early on.
Another time that a sea start can be beneficial is when your strategic resource of choice is a long way off and it's not feasible to build a road there, then you'll get it hooked up with minimal work once you get sailing. If circumstances lead you down this route it can be a good idea to make the best of having sailing early by getting TGL if there's time for it.

 

[Morgrad]

I don't mind it if the circumstances are right. If I get a coastal start, I like to keep a coastal Civ going as much as I can. Although I concede the point that a great inland city will beat the snot out of a great coastal city in most scenarios, I guess I'll do a benefits-post:

1. Sailing means I don't need roads to connect my cities (though I'll do so eventually, I don't *need* it early game - that's good!). It allows for faster land-grabbing, but still able to use those resources empire-wide.

2. GL is an easy-wonder away. +2 trade routes in your capital isn't that big a deal. +2 in all of 4 or 6 cities, with +50% revenue from a harbor certainly is.

3. Throw in the colossus and coastal tiles aren't bad at all for early-mid game. The cities won't be the end-game powerhouses that inland cities can be, but honestly, what part of the game is usually the most important? Pre-1000AD or post-1000AD?

4. Easter Island in a city with lots of coast + colossus makes coastal tiles perfect for any sort of hybrid city. Decent (but not great) production, decent (but not great) commerce.

5. Fishing tiles are much less susceptible to barbarian pillaging.

6. If it's one of those insane 4-seabased food resource starts with corn or pig or something on land, I think it goes without saying that you just found yourself a pretty nice GP farm for later in the game. I often find the crazy-fish + many hills start to be a very powerful capital that can run two scientists *and* be a #1 production city until the renaissance.

Are coastal starts ideal? Except for very rare circumstances, I'm going to say no - but are they so bad that a re-start is called for? I'd say not.

When the RNG gives you coasts, go coastal - Sailing for city connections, compass for harbors, the GL for trade routes, the big bronze man for mo' commerce.

 

[DigitalBoy]

It never really matters to me what the capital looks like; it's virtually always a great city site. It's the second, third, etc. city sites that really make a difference for me.

 

[IAM]

I'm fine with coastal starts. Ussually you get fish resources or something. Plus in BTS with Mao statues coastal tiles are OK for one city.

 

[AmazonQueen]

I have restarted because I didn't get a coastal start. Only with Willem, Ragnar and Hannibal though. What I really hate is when you get the little patch of half-decent terrain and then theres nothing but ice/tundra for miles.

 

[raketooy]

I quite like them cause you usually don't have so many neighbouring civs. I think the optimal is a capital near the coast but only one or two water tiles in the radius so that it still makes a good bureaucracy capital.

 

[lordrune]

Well as a general rule inland cities are potentially more powerful than coastal ones. But in a recent game, I had a coastal capital as Incas (so Financial!!!) with five - count them, FIVE - sea resouces (3 clams, two fish) in the fat cross, wheat, a freshwater lake, and three hills to get a good bit of production (And forests, which I left untouched for health).
I subsequently built the Colossus in a neighbouring city. That was a *fun* game

 

[madscientist]

Benefits of a coatal capital, in contrast to the bad points you mentioned

1) Commerce from trade route is much higher especially with a harbor and customshouse. Trade route commerce is often ignored, but can produce ALOT of commerce, is not pillagable (providing you avoid blockading enemy ships), and independent of worked tiles.
2) One or more side of your capital has a great defense, especially in the early game.
3) Sea tiles produce 2 commerce which is big for early teching.
4) Pillagable roads can be ignored if most of your cities are on coasts and you have sailing.
5) GL and colossus.
6) Bur. is a great civic but so is Free Speech.
7) Coast capitals usually make great GP farms, and the earlier you get one the better off you are.

Sounds to me like you are emphasizing the drawbacks for one civic and you know better than to rely the game on one item.

 

[Zanttu]

Coastal starts suck if you don't start with fishing (assuming you have seafood, and without seafood coastal start is absolutely carbage). That's because you must research another tech (fishing) early instead of some better ones. This IMHO slows you down, since usually I tend to delay fishing-sailing line pretty long. Techs like agriculture, mining, pottery, AH, BW etc will be researched in any case, and if you have to begin with fishing it means you get the other ones later...

 

[frekk]

Fishing and sailing are a huge priority for me ... roads that can't be pillaged (and don't even need to be built) ...

 

[madscientist]

Funny, but my view is that early coastal tile, especially seafood get me off to a fast start because of the commerce. Fishing is the cheapest tech.

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

I don't mind them, but they don't usually have as much production as a land-locked capital and production is a big deal early on.

 

[Wilhelmus]

They are not that bad. In the beginneng, being coastal is jus an advantage, with better trade, and the sea based resources. When you have more cities, and bureaucracy is about to come, you can always move the capital, and you keep the a good Great person farm.

 

[frekk]

bureaucracy is not such a big deal with coastals in bts ... moai statue (national wonder) gives the +1 prod in water tiles ...

As for production ... it matters early on, but not that early. Coastal start still has some land, so until you've grown to the point you're using more than a few squares, it's not any different from a landlocked start. Food is the big deal early on, and coastal starts tend to have more food. Early food gives exponential production because you can put out your first new cities faster.

 

[pigswill]

Sounds like an area of your game you could work on. Maybe you could play a few games on archipelago maps, possibly with someone like Ragnar and learn to use the sea more effectively.