Viable options for getting Pottery/Writing/Alpha/Currency?

[sampsa]

For me, it depends way too much on too many things. First things that come to mind are difficulty level, -potential of the new city (for example FIN river-city vs double pig with no ).

@gavenkoa You are now trying to theorize everything and I don't think it's very effective at this point. You have played for years so it's likely that the limiting factor isn't knowledge, but actual skill. You don't gain skill by trying to understand everything perfectly in theory. Start playing.

 

[gavenkoa]

Too much unit maintenance for scouting against barbarian units spawning. And impossible if there's an aggressive neighbour can attack before 1000BC.

Are you saying you pay unit maintenence in pre-T100 part of the game?

On Imm barbs enter city near T50. To this date I utilize Warriors in forest and situationally build a Chariot (with Warr sacrifice if there is Spearman) or Axman (better option for early barb threat) around T50. With narrow or cornered land 2-3 Warrs is enough usually. I pay extra dead Warrs just to avoid Archery. Probably it is not an option for Diety.

As for AIs, on Imm they show aggression at T100 towards me, but I surprized every time AIs at war at T60, why I'm not a target? For some reason I experience peaceful starts.

Unit maintenance starts when Heredity rule or war is coming...

I write this because when I checked AI performence in WorldBuilder F2 Fin Advisor one of the reason was zero unit upkeep. Of course AI has greater thresholds, so comparison is not fair, still number of units could be kept minimal, if peaceful play makes sense.

What is an approximation - 4 units of population supply 1 unit for free?

 

[gavenkoa]

Building or becomes useful when you can reach a key tech one turn faster mainly

Why do you rank Wealth and Research so low?

Until recently I tried to expand to 8-10 cities, on Imm till T100 it means almost zero income even with developed cottages. Alpha or Currency allows research while poor cities develop to be able to pay for themselves. Alpha is around T80, Currency is around T100-110.

Including a new city is painful because they cannot repay and grow, even if they have great resources around. That's why compact empire with resource sharing are popular - lower distance tax & immediate access to improved tiles.

Do you wage wars instead of burning Hammers on Wealth?

 

[Gumbolt]

This is bonkers. I would be a lot more conservative than that.
You have no chance to tech up if you expand like that. I think cities 4-5 have to be settled after Writing (4th might be before). Cities -6+ have to be settled after Alpha trade (6th might have happened).
It is dependent on how rich the map is but :
Settling the 5th city before writing is not worth it
Settling the 6th city before Alpha trade is not worth it

The more cities you have, the less return you get from new cities. Both because of maintenance and because the quality of that last city will be lower than any previous.
You can somewhat "get back" the return of those cities if you settle them in a wave after a tech target.
Research turns, however, you cannot get back. Maintenance control. Getting higher up on the tech tree by 5-10 turns is a lot better than squeezing out that last early city.

For clarity :
I would be perfectly fine with
3 cities, 5 workers, writing 2000-1600 BC
5 cities,3 libraries, 7 workers, Alpha trade 1000 BC. Play the map sure. As far as timings go,
Just build workers before settlers and settlers after tech targets if you want to tech better.

ps : I also think that build research/wealth is marginal but maybe I just undervalue it.

Pends on difficulty level. I doubt I would have 7 cities before 1000bc. I was generalising when I said 6-7 cities I didn't mean before writing. Unless imperialist and just spamiming cities a few tiles apart. I agree with you. If you expand too fast pottery/writing get delayed too much. I always watch my science rate when expanding.

If I have nothing to build currency and wealth is great. As ever play the map.

 

[sampsa]

Not really, though. On lower difficulties, you might be better served by building wonders, getting an Academy or even horse techs, rather than rushing cities 6-7-8-9-10 in the Ancient Era.
Maintenance adds slower but it still adds up. Losing 10 turns on your Civil Service slingshot for a couple more spots is not the play. Building a settler over a Granary is not the play either.

Yes really, though. You might do this and you might do that, but without any doubt, less maintenance cost makes expansion pay back better. Don't make it complicated when it isn't.

Let's agree that not all maps are wonderland with riverside pigs and flatland gems all around. Yes, there will be exceptions. But we have context, here.
Gavenkoa is talking about IMM level, regular maps, Liberalism races and asking how to tech better. You mentionned helper cities to help set a Bureau cap in advance and that was good advice.
I say you need to sequence techs and city count. Maybe you disagree. For maintenance control, I have also often said that workers should come before settlers.

City 10 is probably a post Civil Service thing (and also 9 and 8, although those are not timings I am very familiar with).
If you settle city 12 peacefully, you're not really doing a "Lib race".
T80 Alpha is a timing I am familiar with and is consistent with a 6 cities REx at 1000 BC. It is still questionable whether the 6th city is worth the delay on Academy + Alpha trade.
This is not an imaginary scenario when people have played hundreds of games on standard maps that end up in the exact same position.

ok

 

[soundjata]

Why do you rank Wealth and Research so low?

Until recently I tried to expand to 8-10 cities, on Imm till T100 it means almost zero income even with developed cottages. Alpha or Currency allows research while poor cities develop to be able to pay for themselves. Alpha is around T80, Currency is around T100-110.

Including a new city is painful because they cannot repay and grow, even if they have great resources around. That's why compact empire with resource sharing are popular - lower distance tax & immediate access to improved tiles.

Do you wage wars instead of burning Hammers on Wealth?

I could give you lots of theoretical arguments but would that convince you?
I agree with Sampsa: if you want to know the answer to this question, get on with the practice
Make a map, call it "Build no wealth nor research challenge" and see how it goes