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I hate religion

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by DanaLea, May 8, 2017.

  1. kb27787

    kb27787 Deity

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    Well, when I do it, I usually do it in only one city... if it fails I don't bother. Your 2nd city is usually terrible at getting that holy site up in decent time (if you hard-chopped it out those forests would've been better for your 1st city holy site/shrine).
    On deity the choices are: (easiest to hardest)
    1) Arabia
    2) Stonehenge China (or a really, really good start with any civ containing deer, forest, chop choppy... not worth it though)
    3) Poland or Greece with early religious and/or culture CS (early prophet card... you have the wildcard slot before AI does)
    4) Discover Natural wonder + some good tea tiles, early holy site Japan/Russia (before first settler... rush-chopped).
    5) Some crazy start like 3 forest+hill+spice/fur/deer tiles in the 1st ring or so. This kind of start can get Stonehenge as well.

    Overall it's best you play normally, taking things as they come... if you get it, great, if you don't, the game is not lost. Overcommitment is usually lethal.
     
    nzcamel likes this.
  2. Zuizgond

    Zuizgond Prince

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    Oct 24, 2016
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    Well... can't deny that. Whenever I give a shot to see if the game has improved, I am bored after 30min. The game is not entertaining at all. AI is far too stupid, diplomacy is meaningless and the religion aspect of the game is too dumbed down.

    So, waiting for a big revamping of the game (which will probably never happen) or a gamebreaking mod (more realistic).
     
  3. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    lol... no its not. Even a warmonger that ignores diplomacy is not plaing the best game.
    Better deals
    Great visibility and intelligence
    joint wars to grind opponents down and help survive early game
    science benefits and a eureka
    Less pontless diplomacy screens

    Sure you can ignore it and whinge loudly when you get multiple denouncements and demands for money/goods..... but thats your fault, not the games. You are just playing simply without guile.
     
    nzcamel likes this.
  4. Zuizgond

    Zuizgond Prince

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    You have to please the AI if you want it to like you. So what did you give to get those supposed better deals? Money, luxury gifts? agree to not expanding? Don't get me wrong, I tried to live in harmony with AI in my first games but I had to nerf myself and give more than I get in return to be considered as a partner. Was it worth it? No, clearly.

    Great visibility and intelligence? Pointless in Civ 6

    Less diplomacy screens? The irony :))
     
  5. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    I disagree (clearly!)...but having felt a similar way about V, I can empathise :(

    How is religion dumbed down? That I'm not following at all.


    @Victoria has done some great work on this. Have you read their threads on diplomacy?? It's def not as stable as it was in IV of course...but I can find a rhyme and reason most of the time.
     
  6. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Deals are fairly useless as at most you get +10 and they degrade 1 point a turn so only of value for a short attempt

    Open Borders +3 (stays while borders open)
    Trade route +2 (stays with trade route)
    Same religion +5 (stays with religion)
    Joint war +5 (degrades 1 point per 10 turns)
    Freed a city +5 (permanent)
    Embassy +3 / Resident Embassy +5 (stays until war)
    Denounced an enemy +8 (degrades 1 point per 10 turns while enemy exists
    Same Government +x
    Their Primary and secondary agendas +6-+12 <<< a big one, especially early

    You need to get around +8-15 to get a good chance of declaring friendship or being offered it. First impressions is the only real negative and that looses 1 point every 10 turns.
    Once a declared friend they always agree to being allies if you ask.

    +9 for friends
    +18 for allies
    +8 for friend of a friend
    +8 for friend of an ally

    Complete BS... you ally with Norway at turn 90 and suddenly you see the whole board without exploring it. You also see any of your enemies troop movements that Norway can see. In my opinoin you are being inflammatory or ignorant. I just ask you consider it seriously because it does make for better wars.

    Perhaps you are warmongering the wrong way?
    I am not going to type in about the 10th thread just how you deal with warmongering but it is even possible to be allies with everyone you have taken the capital of if you bothered to consider all the points of diplomacy. For a start liberating a city gives -32 warmonger. Declaring a surprise was not only gives 1.5 times warmonger for starting a war but for every city you take. If you want to take every city of a civ after the classical age you are just hobbling yourself in other ways and there is no decent reason to apart from feeling you own the world. If you want to play that way then thats fine ... just do not blame the game... blame yourself for not being able to play the game to its best effect.

    I just started a game with Cyrus and Brazil next to me... I declared a surprise war on Brazil and Cyrus now loves me.... Once I get to allies he can start hating me for -6... it does not matter as I am +18 for allies.
    I also could have declared a joint war with Cyrus against Brazil but it is 1 point less because it is considered a formal war so less warmonger but still done without warning.
    If I had played like a wet cloth then Brazil would declare on me and they would have ended up being best buddies
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
    steveg700 and nzcamel like this.
  7. Zuizgond

    Zuizgond Prince

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    Do you open your borders just to please an AI and see all his units occupying your tiles? Do you maintain inefficient trade routes just to please an AI? Do you accept an AI's religion and renounce to yours just to make him happy? Do you go on a joint war just to please him and be hated by others? Do you give a city for free just to please an AI? Do you take the same inefficient government as an AI just to please him?

    The question is : at the end of the day was it worth it?

    What is so important in seeing the whole board without exploring it? Can't you explore it yourself? Said differently, being allied with someone has a price. Is it worth doing it just to... see the map and enemy movements? Can't you just do that with 1-2 scouts?

    Perhaps. But my games have become easier when I started not to care about AI attitude towards me and developing my civ like I want. If they declare war on me, I just need to wait 10 turns and they give me all their money.

    Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE diplomacy to be meaningful, but sadly it's more efficient to bulldoze your way to victory.

    But we digressed a little bit as it was supposed to be a thread about religion.
     
  8. Wulfram G.T.

    Wulfram G.T. Chieftain

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    I always disable religious victory by now because I consider it cheesy.
    And also the AI is just too dumb to protect their own religion.

    Once played as France on a snowflake map.
    I didnt found a religion.
    Spain next to me found Catholicism and converts my cities.
    Russia from the other side of the snowflake converts all Spain and rest of world to Orthodoxy but not me.
    To prevent Russia from winning a RV I heroically bring back Catholicism to Spain.
    Spain denounces me for converting their cities o.0
     
  9. Abraxis

    Abraxis Emperor

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    :shake:

    You say you would love if that were the case, but have you really put any effort into figuring out how to make it work for you? My concern lately is that playing peaceful tourism games, abusing diplomacy and gold, feels too much like and easy way to turn even poor start into a win.
     
  10. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    as he said @Abraxis its more simple minded to bulldoze your way if you cannot be bothered.
     
  11. liv

    liv Emperor

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    On a slightly different note related to religion
    I wish there was a way to get a good overview of the state of religion.
    As a warmonger there are times when I am in danger of losing the game because I am taking over cities belonging to a religious dominant civ. I try to count how many cities I have and how close to 50% of the enemy religion I have or will have if I keep any cities. Some kind of overview would be welcome
     
  12. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    I find the current state of diplomatic modifiers pretty acceptable. Impacting the WM penalty by size is a great idea. Kind of a no-brainer. Now, the positive mod you get for liberating should be similarly adjusted. It's too easy to rack positive mods in a liberation war by liberating low-pop, suffocated pimple cities.

    The major problem with diplomacy is bigger than warmonger penalties. It's related to the same problem there is with resources and the map: there just aren't enough reasons to care about it. Even friends don't cut good deals. They want three luxuries in exchange for one. They want 10 GPT in exchange for an Open Borders treaty. They rarely seem to care about research agreements. Again, this is with guys who supposedly like me. Heck, they don't even tie trade routes into diplomacy. Hate you, love you, whatever--as long as we're not at war, no matter. It's very clear to me that the designers do not want diplomacy to be overpowered, just as they don't want exclusive access to resources on the map to be overpowered. So they make the benefits watered-down and not worth any special effort.

    The one thing I do with diplomacy is find a whipping boy, make friends with him, then use him as the basis for late-game liberation wars. I keep his capital or wonder cities, then I give some of his B-list cities back. I've reined in the bully and now I'm the big damn hero.

    Assuming that I ever discover a reason to engage diplomacy heavily, I would then like to see a few improvements:

    1) Civ's that need stuff (be it luxuries to allow for expansion or art for their museums or open borders to boost their tourism) can put that need ahead of whether or not they like me. Don't bite your nose off to spite your face. Be willing to allow me to dig myself out of a diplomatic hole.
    2) Have relationships impact trade routes, but the AI should let their desire for trade routes impact their attitude towards other civ's rather than just the reverse.
    3) The AI should offer gifts sometimes, simply because I feel it's exploitive for me to be the only civ improving relationships with gifts.
    4) Allow civ's to flat-out ask each other what they can do to improve relationships.
     

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